• Florida Democrats’ chances in this year’s U.S. Senate and gubernatorial races

• How both progressive Senate candidate Angie Nixon and moderate gubernatorial candidate David Jolly are both making inroads with voters

• Why Trump has become damaged goods even in his adopted home state, and how Democrats have flipped 48 seats in the last 18 months

• The corruption scandal dogging Republican Senator Ashley Moody

• How Florida Democrats are competing with Republicans massive fundraising advantage — with help from Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders

• Why Florida Republicans’ “dummymander” may backfire

• How Florida voters can make sure their votes are counted

• Why Democrats across the country can’t afford to concede Florida

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Democrats Could Pull Off Huge Wins in Marquee Races

Gibson opened the conversation by asking Fried whether the latest polls that show Angie Nixon (who Raw America interviewed in August) and David Jolly within the margin of error in their respective races matched what she’s seeing on the ground. Fried said that after the last few elections, she’s less interested in what individual polls are saying versus trends, and that she also has an exclusive insight into candidates’ internal polling for races at all levels.

“While the methodology is all different, while the locations are different, types of people polling, everything seems to be pointed to the same direction,” Fried said. “From congressional seats to legislative seats to statewide races, everything is within the margins of error on both sides of these races.”

Fried also noted that Democrats’ optimism is partially due to voters’ anger with Republicans both in Washington and in Tallahassee.

“People are so pissed about not only what has happened in Washington, D.C., but we’ve had one party controlling the state for 30 years,” she said. “What has that power given to the people of our state? How has that made their lives better? And it just hasn’t. And so the people of our state are ready to take back their power.”

Voters Are Lining Up to Support ‘Fighters’

Gibson observed that Democrats’ candidates at the top of the Florida ballot come from very different places on the ideological spectrum. While Nixon is an outspoken progressive running on issues like Medicare for All, Jolly — a former Republican congressman from the Tampa area who left the party during Trump’s first term — is running a more moderate campaign focused on the cost of living. Regardless of their differences, both candidates have been gaining significant ground over the past several months.

Fried said both candidates are seeing success because they’re running on economic populism and capitalizing on bipartisan outrage over Donald Trump’s war in Iran and his unpopular tariffs.

“[Republicans are] putting billionaires first. They’re putting Elon Musk first. They’re putting the tech bros first. They’re putting Trump first. They’re putting the MAGA brand first. Not the people,” Fried said. “While Angie and David are certainly on a very wide spectrum of solutions, they’re honing in on the same message: that people can’t afford to live here.”

The Florida Democratic Party chair also highlighted a report released this week showing that utility companies have been wining and dining the officials tasked with regulating them, and said voters are now no longer voting based purely on partisan affiliation.

“People are not wanting labels,” Fried said. “They want solutions. They want fighters who are going to show up.”

How Trump Is Dragging Down Republicans in His Home State

Gibson called attention to signs that Trump has become damaged goods even in his adopted home state, with Republican gubernatorial candidate Byron Donalds removing mentions of the president from his campaign website and Republican Congresswoman Maria Elvira Salazar releasing an ad about how Trump’s ICE crackdowns are alienating Latino voters in the Sunshine State. And he pointed out that the last time Fried appeared on Raw America, Democrats had just successfully flipped the Florida House district that includes Mar-a-Lago.

Fried said that seat is just one of four dozen that Florida Democrats have taken from Republicans since the spring of 2025. This includes mayoral races in both the City of Miami, Boca Raton and Key West; a state Senate seat in the Tampa area, and even a seat in ruby-red Escambia County, which Fried said Democrats hadn’t won in decades. She also dismissed Republicans downplaying those victories as flukes.

“Republicans want to say, ‘Oh, special elections, special elections,’ but the reality is these weren’t special elections,” Fried said. “These are municipal calendar elections that happen every two to four years, and we weren’t winning those previously.”

Fried gave a shout-out to Pendulum, which is the state Democratic Party’s year-round statewide organizing program. According to Fried, Pendulum has made roughly 3.9 million voter contacts via phone, text, and canvassing over the last 18 months. She also observed that Trump’s draconian immigration agenda has taken a serious toll on Florida’s agricultural hubs.

“The fields are barren. People are not showing up to work because of all the ICE raids,” she said.

Fried also heaped criticism on the “Alligator Alcatraz” ICE detention facility as little more than a $1.6 billion giveaway of public money to Republican donors through no-bid contracts. She said those same donors are now funneling money back to GOP candidates like Byron Donalds and Ashley Moody.

“The energy here is we’re pissed, we are ready for change, and finally, the Democratic Party is showing up and giving us a reason to come out and vote for them,” Fried said.

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Florida’s Incumbent GOP Senator Embroiled in Corruption Scandal

Gibson then pivoted to former Florida Attorney General-turned-Senator Ashley Moody, who was appointed to her seat after Marco Rubio joined the Trump administration and is now running for a full six-year term. He asked whether the Hope Florida scandal — in which roughly $10 million in Medicaid settlement money was funneled to various Republican groups through Florida First Lady Casey DeSantis’ nonprofit — was haunting Moody on the campaign trail.

Fried first laid out the timeline of the scandal. As she explained, Medicaid provider Centene was caught over-billing states, prompting Florida to negotiate a $67 million settlement. Somewhere along the way, $10 million of that money went to Hope Florida before finding its way to two other nonprofits, before eventually trickling down to a political action committee controlled by James Uthmeier — the current attorney general of Florida who previously served as Gov. Ron DeSantis’s chief of staff.

From there, Fried explained that the money went to the Republican Party of Florida, which used it to defeat the 2024 ballot initiative to legalize recreational cannabis across the Sunshine State. That amendment received 54 percent of the vote, which, while still a clear majority, fell short of the 60% threshold Florida requires for new constitutional amendments.

“That money got from a negotiation that should have been going back into Medicaid and helping sick children,” Fried said.

As attorney general, Moody had to sign off on the settlement. Fried said public documents show how Moody’s office went to great lenghts in order to separate her from the deal, but that the paper trail still ultimately leads back to her.

“She signed off on it, and there’s plenty of paper documents,” Fried said. “She was right in the middle of this mess. Got rewarded by getting that U.S. Senate appointment, as did James Uthmeier, who got his appointment now to attorney general.”

Fried said Moody’s voting record in the Senate also hasn’t helping her chances of reelection adding that she votes with Trump “almost 100% of the time,” including on his so-called “One Big Beautiful Bill Act” (which Fried called the “big BS bill”) which led to healthcare cuts for hundreds of thousands of Floridians. Moody is also a consistent supporter of Trump’s deeply unpoplar war in Iran.

How Democrats Can Overcome Republicans’ Financial Edge

Gibson then asked Fried about the several million dollars that independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont spent from his remaining 2020 campaign war chest to support candidates around the country, including Nixon. He also asked whether Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (DSCC) had reached out about helping Nixon get across the finish line.

Fried acknowledged that Republicans continue to have a significant financial advantage, and highlighted examples like Byron Donalds receiving $10 million from hedge fund billionaire Ken Griffin and millions of dollars from Big Tech billionaires, data center developers and major insurance industry donors.

“We don’t play like that, and so we don’t get those types of financial resources,” Fried said.

She confirmed that the money Sanders sent went to the Florida Democratic Party on Nixon’s behalf, and that both the Florida Democratic Party and the Nixon campaign are working in tandem to decide whether those critical resources will be best spent on additional field staff to knock on doors, TV ads, or digital advertising on social media. Fried said her party’s strategy for the last several election cycles has been to invest in building up an army of Democratic volunteers rather than try to match Republicans dollar-for-dollar on commercials.

“If anybody’s asking, ‘Where’s all the commercials?’ Well, at the end of the day, that costs money, and we’d rather put the money on the ground talking to people and not just propaganda on TV,” Fried said.

Fried clarified she hasn’t yet personally spoken with Schumer, but that Senators Chris Murphy of Connecticut and Ruben Gallego of Arizona were both currently in Florida to both boost Nixon and help Democrats up and down the ticket.

Florida Republicans’ ‘Dummymander’ May Have Hurt The GOP’s House Majority

Gibson pivoted to the congressional map Florida Republicans redrew earlier this year, years ahead of the normal redistricting schedule, after DeSantis unveiled color-coded red and blue maps on Fox News. He asked whether the gerrymander had backfired.

Fried said she first sensed what was coming last summer, when she watched DeSantis and Trump discussing on camera during a tour of Alligator Alcatraz whether Republicans should have gotten more seats in the last round of redistricting.

“My spider senses went off, and I said they’re going to play for something,” Fried said, adding that the party immediately began preparing its legal team and Democratic legislators to fight back.

Fried noted that Florida voters added the Fair Districts amendments to the state constitution in 2010, banning maps drawn for partisan advantage. She said DeSantis’s staff openly admitted to lawmakers that they used partisan data to draw the lines, and that neither the House nor Senate sponsor could defend the map during floor debate.

“They know full well that they broke the Florida Constitution,” she said.

But Fried argued that by spreading Republican voters thin to target the state’s eight Democratic-held seats, the GOP created a “dummymander” that leaves several of its own seats vulnerable, since she said Florida has shifted at least 10 points to the left.

“If you’re an R+10 or below, which is about another five to seven seats, this moment may cost you your reelect or that open seat,” she said.

She pointed to Florida’s 16th Congressional District, where Republican National Committee chairman Joe Gruters’s wife is the GOP nominee in an R+7 seat, and where Fried said Democratic candidate Kelly Kirschner is leading in the polls.

“They can end up losing the RNC chairman’s wife in this dummymander that they just had to get through this year,” Fried said.

How Floridians Can Make Sure Their Ballots Get Counted

With many older Floridians voting by mail, and concerns about the Trump administration interfering with the Postal Service and mail ballots, Gibson asked Fried what she’d tell voters worried that their votes won’t be counted.

Fried said the party has had an extensive voter protection operation in place, including attorneys and volunteer poll workers, and used the August primaries as a test run. She also offered an unexpected source of reassurance.

“This is the weirdest thing for me to say,” Fried said. “Don’t anybody cringe when I say this. A little bit of trust in DeSantis on this issue, because he has been so forward on saying that Florida’s voting is the most secure in the country. … So anything less than that, he will have egg on his own face.”

Fried reminded voters that Florida does not count ballots by postmark, so mail ballots must be received by the county supervisor of elections by 7 p.m. on Election Day. She encouraged voters to track their mail ballots, use drop boxes, or vote early to avoid long lines.

“Regardless if you’re voting early, vote by mail, or on Election Day, make a plan, follow through with the plan, and then verify that your vote has actually been counted,” she said.

Why Democrats Can’t Afford to Give Up on Florida

Gibson closed by asking what Fried would say to Democrats elsewhere who are hesitant to invest in Florida, given Republicans’ large voter registration advantage.

“There’s no choice,” Fried said. “Florida has to be back on the map.”

Fried pointed to population growth across the South, noting that Florida, Texas, and other Southern states are projected to gain congressional seats and electoral votes after the 2030 census. Without investment in organizing infrastructure in Florida, she warned, Democrats will struggle to win the House or the presidency.

“If we haven’t — and I use this very clearly — not spent in Florida, invested in Florida, that is infrastructure,” she said. “Otherwise, the math is not going to work.”

Fried also emphasized that roughly a third of Florida voters are independents, and that independents nationwide have been breaking heavily for Democrats.

“When you’ve got 60 to 70% of those independents breaking for Democrats, that’s how we’re winning these elections,” she said.

Finally, Fried argued that Florida has served as a testing ground for Project 2025, from attacks on Black political representation to removing Black history from textbooks and banning books, and that Democrats must win back the state’s diverse Latino communities if they want to expand their coalition.

“For the rest of the nation to see what is happening to democracy, you start here in Florida and you start in the South, because this is where democracy is first lost,” Fried said.

Election Day in Florida is November 3.

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• Defeating Trump’s lawsuit against Ann Selzer and the Des Moines Register

• Trump’s lengthy history of using the court system to silence journalists and critics

• Whether the Supreme Court could enable Trump to ratchet up his attacks on press freedom

• ABC and Disney’s lawsuit against Trump’s FCC and Chairman Brendan Carr

• A Republican senator’s request for the FCC investigate ABC News for reporting on Trump’s sons

• The White House’s attempt to lock out reporters from CNN, Politico, MS NOW and Raw America

• Why media companies, law firms and universities who give in to Trump’s bullying always lose

• Trump’s DOJ prosecuting nonviolent protesters in Minnesota and Chicago

• How people who lack the funding to hire lawyers can still fight back

Raw America is only able to bring you in-depth conversations like these — with an attorney who won a legal battle against Donald Trump — because of the support of our paying subscribers. Between now and Election Day, we’re aiming to reach 10,000 subscribers so we can keep this work going well into the future. We’re making it even easier to become a paying member by offering 20% off an annual subscription until we hit our goal. Will you take a moment to invest in independent journalism?

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How Corn-Revere Beat Trump in Court

In late September, an Iowa judge dismissed Donald Trump’s lawsuit against both the Des Moines Register and J. Ann Selzer, who is one of the most respected political pollsters in the country. Trump accused both the Register and Selzer of committing consumer fraud after Selzer’s final poll showed he could potentially lose Iowa to then-Vice President Kamala Harris in the 2024 election, though Trump ended up winning the Hawkeye State.

Corn-Revere made sure to credit lawyers who represented the Register, who litigated the case alongside Corn-Revere and FIRE, before explaining why Judge Scott J. Beattie ruled in favor of the defendants two years after the election.

“The case went through a lot of procedural wrangling, went up to federal court, got sent back to state court, and then ultimately we had briefing and a hearing before Judge Scott Beatty in Polk County, Iowa,” Corn-Revere explained. “And he issued a 64-and-a-half-page opinion dismissing all claims very decisively.”

Gibson noted that in Corn-Revere’s statement after the ruling, he called Trump’s lawsuit “laughable” and said the First Amendment “doesn’t allow anyone in government, least of all the president, to punish people under the banner of ‘fake news.’” Corn-Revere agreed with Gibson’s assertion that the president was using the power of the courts in an attempt to bully his critics into silence.

“I don’t want to get bogged down in legal jargon, but I think the appropriate legal term for this lawsuit is ‘forehead-slappingly stupid,’” Corn-Revere said. “And it goes way back to Donald Trump’s tactics from long before he was in politics.”

The First Amendment expert reminded viewers that long before Trump entered politics, he sued the Chicago Tribune’s architecture critic for calling one of his proposed real estate developments ugly, and then later filed a suit against a writer who, in Trump’s view, undercounted the eventual president’s net worth. Corn-Revere said Trump has been been behind roughly 30 defamation suits against journalists since the 1980s and has yet to win a single one. He has, however, pressured defendants into giving him millions of dollars in settlements since he was reelected.

“He now has the machinery of the federal government, which he can bring to bear and pressure people into making settlements of otherwise frivolous claims,” Corn-Revere said. “The question now with Trump 2.0 is whether or not people have the staying power, whether or not they will stand up and fight for their rights.”

Trump Setting His Sights on a Major Press Freedom Case

The president has repeatedly said he wants to overturn New York Times v. Sullivan, the ruling that allows journalists to cover public officials without fear of being financially ruined by frivolous lawsuits. With the midterms exactly three weeks away and Democrats poised to retake one or both chambers of Congress and hold hearings that will reveal unflattering details about both Trump and his business dealings, Gibson asked if it was a possibility that the 6-3 conservative supermajority Supreme Court could re-hear the case and give Trump the result he wants.

Corn-Revere emphasized his belief that the case’s underlying precedent in the case is airtight, but acknowledged that the origins of the case have a lot in common with press freedom today. As the prominent First Amendment attorney explained, that case stemmed from efforts by segregationists in the Deep South to punish newspapers in the North for covering the Civil Rights Movement. The Times initially had to pay Alabama Public Safety Commissioner L.B. Sullivan $500,000 in a libel verdict over minor factual errors, though the Supreme Court ultimately overturned it in its landmark 1964 ruling.

“It got to the point where the Times was not sending reporters to the South to report on the Civil Rights Movement,” he said. “What we’re seeing today is sort of a return to those kinds of tactics, use of bogus litigation by government officials to try and silence speakers and journalists that they don’t like.”

Corn-Revere explained the high bar to prove defamation is exactly why Trump opted to sue Selzer and the Register for consumer fraud instead of libel. He added that while Justices Neil Gorsuch (a Trump appointee) and Clarence Thomas (who was appointed by George H.W. Bush) have expressed an interest in re-litigating the case, the rest of the Supreme Court has indicated a lack of interest in doing so.

“I don’t think that precedent is in any danger,” he said.

Trump’s FCC Chair Engaging in ‘Record-Breaking Levels of Hypocrisy’

The conversation then pivoted to Disney and ABC’s ongoing lawsuit against Trump’s Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and its chairman, Brendan Carr, who authored the section of Project 2025 pertaining to the FCC. Gibson recounted how the FCC is now making the move to force the license renewal process for ABC’s eight owned stations many years ahead of schedule after Trump has consistently singled out the network for critical coverage of his administration.

Corn-Revere said while it’s common for there to be some litigation surrounding license renewal, an FCC threatening to revoke licenses for political reasons is uncharted territory.

“There has never been an effort like this that was so nakedly political and on such a broad scale to go after a network’s licenses. It really is unprecedented,” he said. “And for Brendan Carr, who used to fancy himself to be a free speech warrior before he became chairman, it is, I think, record-breaking levels of hypocrisy.”

He laid out how the FCC has consistently escalated its efforts to clamp down on Trump’s critics. First there’s rhetorical pressure, then investigations, followed by a re-interpretation of the rules specifically aimed at shows like The View, and finally the surprise demand for early broadcast license renewals.

This issue is uniquely personal for Corn-Revere, who was once chief counsel to then-FCC chairman James Quello in his career in the 1990s during the Clinton administration.

“To see the FCC’s rules and policies being misused to such a great extent, it is really astonishing to see,” Corn-Revere said.

Gibson noted that even though the FCC has no jurisdiction over online media, Republicans like Senator Bernie Moreno of Ohio seem to think otherwise. This week, Moreno sent a letter to the agency asking it to investigate an ABC News online report about the billions of dollars in federal contracts that have consistently been awarded to companies linked to the president’s eldest sons, Donald Jr. and Eric.

“It is using simply the coercion that we’re going to make life miserable for you if you don’t do what we say,” Corn-Revere said of the Trump FCC. “It was historically understood that the FCC was designed to be a bipartisan, non-political agency, therefore to manage the law in a very technical way, and it was supposed to steer clear of politics. Those norms have been broken, and that has to be restored, regardless whether or not courts hold them to the letter of the law.”

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The Battle to Restore Press Freedom at the White House

Trump announced on social media last month that he would be barring reporters from CNN, Politico and MS NOW from accessing the White House. He’s also revoked credentials for Raw America White House correspondent Brian Karem without any notice or explanation. Gibson noted that at the state dinner with Chinese President Xi Jinping, David Ellison — who became the new owner of CNN’s parent company last week — sat at the table with Trump and Xi while CNN’s reporters were locked out of the event.

Gibson then asked about the effects of media organizations presenting a united front in the face of Trump’s actions. Corn-Revere noted that early on in Trump’s second term law firms and universities who caved in the face of executive orders targeting them ended up suffering anyway.

“Those who capitulate don’t really fare all that well,” Corn-Revere said, pointing out that prominent firms lost major clients while other firms that stood firm didn’t. He also pointed to four separate law firms that sued and later won injunctions.

“I think they won not just in court; they also won in the court of public opinion,” he said.

“If you look historically at the way the First Amendment has developed, the history of our free speech protections has been written by the ones who stood up,” Corn-Revere continued. “The ones who took the risks that they might lose, but still forged those really critically important First Amendment principles that we all rely on today.”

Standing Up and Fighting Back Is a Winning Strategy

Gibson highlighted the recent example of J. Ann Selzer and the Des Moines Register winning in Iowa state court as proof that fighting back against Trump’s attacks on the First Amendment can pay bug dividends, and contrasting their efforts with law firms like Paul Weiss giving in. He also noted that while ABC settled Trump’s lawsuit over anchor George Stephanopoulos’s comments about writer E. Jean Carroll sexual abuse verdict against Trump, its parent company, Disney, is now fighting back against Trump’s FCC.

Corn-Revere also heaped praise on media outlets that expressed solidarity toward the reporters and outlets that had their press credentials revoked, calling it “very heartening and very impressive.” And he further warned that ceding ground to authoritarians will only offer the illusion of temporary safety.

“Giving in to a bully is really short-term thinking. It isn’t going to be a sound strategy for the long term,” the FIRE attorney said. “Even though you’re rolling the dice and you don’t know what a court may do, the only sure path to security is to stand on your rights.”

Trump Prosecutes Ideas Instead of Acts

Gibson observed that Trump’s attacks on basic Constitutional rights go well beyond newsrooms. He pointed to the case of the Minnesota 15, in which anti-ICE protesters who helped organize nonviolent resistance and surveillance efforts to the administration’s immigration crackdown this winter have since been charged with federal crimes. Gibson warned that federal prosecutors, appear to be treating anti-fascism as a crime, even though Antifa is an idea and not an actual organization.

“That’s part of the problem,” Corn-Revere said. “The overall focus of this administration has been to try and criminalize ideologies and not acts.”

The First Amendment attorney made it clear that while acts of violence or physical attacks on police can be punished under the law, things like Trump’s September 2025 National Security Presidential Memorandum that allows for surveillance of all anti-American, anti-capitalist and anti-Christian beliefs is a far more sinister threat to the First Amendment.

“You see those kinds of directives being followed by ICE and other agencies in going way overboard in how they both conduct surveillance and how they crack down on dissent,” he said.

Gibson then pivoted to the case of the Broadview Six, in which six anti-ICE protesters were arrested outside the Broadview ICE detention facility in the Chicago area — one of whom was then-Democratic congressional candidate Kat Abughazaleh.

The federal judge overseeing the case found evidence that prosecutors had potentially manipulated the grand jury process to secure what appeared to be politically motivated charges. This led to Trump’s Justice Department dropping the case entirely rather than be further embarrassed in the discovery process. Gibson asked whether a future Democratic-led Congress or Democratic attorney general could press for sanctions or disbarment for the prosecutors involved in the case.

“It is possible that legal officials who have misused the law can face sanctions like disbarment. We’ve seen that kind of thing happen in the past,” Corn-Revere said.

However, he countered that merely switching the party in charge won’t fix the problem by itself. FIRE — which Corn-Revere reminded viewers is a nonpartisan organization — has also been involved in litigation against Democratic officials, including California Gov. Gavin Newsom’s $787 million defamation suit against Fox News as it originally included a consumer fraud allegation.

“What I hate to see is the two parties, even though they are going at each other, learning the bad habits of each other,” Corn-Revere said. “What we try to do is maintain the same set of legal principles that binds both sides and protects we the people from that kind of overreach, regardless of which direction it’s coming from.”

How to Fight Back When You Can’t Afford a Lawyer

In Vermont, protesters have been consistently mobilizing outside of an ICE surveillance center that gives field agents data to track down and arrest immigrants. The Intercept reported last week that both state and federal prosecutors have officially filed criminal charges organizers of a planned week of action right before it was set to begin, prompting allegations of the government using the machinery of the legal system to chill dissent. Gibson asked Corn-Revere how people who can’t afford to mount a legal defense against the government can survive when the state clamps down on them.

“That’s one of the reasons why organizations like FIRE exist. We represent people without charge, and we take as many cases as we possibly can,” Corn-Revere said. “It has been a boom time for that kind of thing.”

He described how one man — David Streaver of Rochester, New York — sent an angry email to the acting director of ICE after agents gunned down U.S. citizens Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. Several months after that email, ICE agents showed up at his door with a notice warning that he may have broken federal law by threatening a public official.

“There was no threat here, nothing even remotely like a threat,” Corn-Revere said. “It was simply someone registering a protest with the government.” FIRE took the case and won an injunction against ICE.

To close the interview, Gibson asked what Corn-Revere would say to people who are hesitant to join a protest, or even contact their elected officials out of fear that the Trump administration could come after them.

“First of all, I want to say that I understand the risks, and it is not easy to show fortitude when you have, especially, this kind of belligerent overreach by government officials,” he said. “But it pays to think more in the long term as well, and to think over the course of American history, it has been those people who are willing to stand up that made sure that the principles that this country was founded on have continued.”

Help Us Keep Bringing You Perspectives Like These

The Trump administration is counting on its aggressive attacks on the First Amendment to scare Americans away from exercising their Constitutional rights. But as Bob Corn-Revere has shown, even those without the resources to fight back in the face of these tactics can not only stand up — they can win. News outlets owned by MAGA billionaires like David Ellison won’t platform people like Corn-Revere, but we can. Because we answer to no billionaire or corporate parent. We answer only to readers like you. And we’ll keep it that way as long as we’re around.

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Today, Human Rights Campaign (HRC) President Kelley Robinson joined Raw America managing editor Carl Gibson to talk about how Democrats should respond to anti-trans talking points, and about how Americans can work together to protect marginalized people facing attacks on multiple fronts. Gibson and Robinson covered various topics, including:

• Why Democrats shouldn’t “take the bait” on anti-trans attack ads

• How the religious right pivoted to trans issues after the Supreme Court’s legalization of same-sex marriage

• How Democrats like Andy Beshear in Kentucky and Abigail Spanberger in Virginia won reelection while standing up for trans rights

• How to talk with parents about fairness in women’s sports

• How the case of transgender male wrestler Mack Beggs shatters conservatives’ anti-trans laws

• The importance of youth sports in supporting kids’ mental health

• HRC’s new Safe Schools Champion program for school board candidates

• Record-breaking book bans and the fight against Moms for Liberty for competitive school board seats

• The administration threatening Medicaid coverage for gender dysphoria care

• Voter ID laws that could prevent transgender voters from casting a ballot

• What voters can do if they’re turned away at the polls this November

Raw America is only able to bring you in-depth conversations like these with knowledgeable policy experts because of paying subscribers who believe in independent journalism. If you find value in these interviews, become a paying subscriber today. You’ll be glad you did.

Support independent journalism

Robinson’s Advice to Democrats: “Don’t Take the Bait”

Gibson began the interview by acknowledging the growing split among Democrats on whether to embrace transgender Americans or give in to anti-trans talking points in an effort to win over conservative voters.

He argued Governors like Andy Beshear in Kentucky and JB Pritzker in Illinois tend take a compassionate approach when it comes to trans rights, while Democrats like Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur in Ohio and South Carolina gubernatorial candidate Annie Andrews took what Gibson called a more “discriminatory” approach. He then asked Robinson about a recent HRC Substack essay in which Robinson urged Democrats not to “take the bait.”

The HRC president insisted the attacks on transgender Americans are a deliberate distraction from issues like high gas prices, tariffs and the Iran war, while pointing out that Republicans have already spent $170 million on anti-trans ads this cycle alone.

“They don’t have an answer as to why gas is $4.50 a gallon,” she said. “They can’t speak to the American people about why we’re in another endless war. They can’t talk about the inflation issues that are most meaningful in people’s lives right now. So they’re resorting to this old tactic of sowing chaos and fear against a community that people don’t know much about.”

She instead called on Democrats to keep their eyes on the prize: “Don’t take the bait, answer the attacks head-on, and then go back to talking about the issues that matter most to voters.”

How Conservatives Use Trans Kids as a Political Weapon

To get to the root of why conservatives keep attacking the transgender community, Gibson pointed to a 2023 New York Times report in which Terry Schilling, president of the conservative group American Principles Project, explained how the right scrambled to find a new way to galvanize social conservatives after the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage nationwide in the 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges ruling. Gibson noted that transgender rights became the issue that stuck, despite transgender Americans making up less than 1 percent of the population. Robinson called the organized assault on trans rights “heartbreaking.”

“What you’re seeing across the country is adults spending lots of time and hundreds of millions of dollars to attack kids,” she said. “… There are some things in American politics [that] used to be sacred, right? Like we don’t go after people’s families, we don’t go after their kids.”

Robinson insisted the far right’s anti-trans rhetoric has nothing to do with safety, sports, or education, and argued their assault on fundamental rights won’t stop with trans people. She pointed to a new law in Kansas that took away driver’s licenses from trans people if their gender markers don’t match their sex assigned at birth.

“If extremists are successful in taking away rights from one small group of people, who will they try that on next?” Robinson asked. “We have always been, in historical generations, about expanding rights, expanding this vision of the American dream and who can participate… We’re being asked right now to whom does this country belong, and I hope that the answer is it belongs to all of us.”

How Democrats Won Elections By Defending Trans People

Gibson noted that Gov. Beshear was reelected to a second term in deep-red Kentucky three years ago by fully embracing trans people, calling them “children of God” in a way that resonated with the state’s significant population of evangelical voters. He then said Democrats giving in to conservatives’ anti-trans arguments was akin to handing a bully your lunch money.

“I could not have said it better myself,” Robinson said. “This is bullying happening in the public square, and we need adults that are going to stand up to it.”

Robinson observed that Democrat Abigail Spanberger won Virginia’s 2025 gubernatorial race by double digits while standing “ten toes down” on defending trans kids. She also pointed to the example of Mikie Sherrill, who handily won New Jersey’s gubernatorial election last year despite Republican-aligned groups spending millions of dollars on anti-trans attack ads.

“The question isn’t, can you win by standing on the right side of this issue — you absolutely can,” she said. “In fact, you can build your coalition even bigger.”

Robinson also had a direct message for candidates who think conceding ground to anti-LGBTQ conservatives will put a stop to the attack ads.

“I’m sorry to tell you, they’re not going to stop running the ads. Our opposition is not engaged in a well-intentioned debate about policy,” Robinson said, “What they’re trying to do is use children, trans kids, as a political wedge. You got to stand up to the bullies.”

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How to Talk About Fairness in Sports with Parents

Gibson then brought up to the issue of fairness in girls’ and women’s sports, which he noted many well-meaning Democrats continue to struggle with. He referenced a March 2025 survey in which roughly 80 percent of respondents said they favored keeping trans women out of women’s sports, and asked Robinson how allies should talk with parents of cisgender female athletes concerned about fairness.

Robinson welcomed honest conversation on the issue, and insisted the solution should never be excluding kids from extracurricular activities. However, she lamented that the issue has become needlessly politicized and pointed out that trans kids have played sports for decades under policies set by local leagues and the NCAA with virtually no issies.

“This is not an area for politicians,” Robinson said. “This is an area for experts with community members to figure out the best solutions.”

Gibson then brought up the case of Mack Beggs, who is a trans male wrestler in Texas who was forced to compete in the girls’ division due to anti-trans laws on the books. He made clear he wanted to compete in the boys’ division, but was prohibited from doing so. Robinson noted that Beggs’ case illustrates how the realities of youth sports are full of nuance, including some girls who are forced to compete in boys’ wrestling leagues because no girls’ division exists.

In recent years, Republican lawmakers in multiple states across the country have passed hundreds of bills restricting trans athletes, with each only affecting only a small handful of kids. She pointed to the example of Becky Pepper-Jackson in West Virginia, who was the only transgender student affected by an anti-trans law the GOP-dominated West Virginia legislature passed and litigated all the way to the Supreme Court.

“They escalated this all the way to the Supreme Court for what? For one kid that was trying to play, not even at the super-competitive level,” Robinson said.

The HRC president also sounded the alarm about an anti-transgender sports ballot initiative in Washington state that she noted would require girls who want to play competitive sports to confirm their gender.

“What does that mean? Who’s going to do the confirmation? What adults are going to be in charge of that process?” Robinson asked. “These things are the dangers that we’re opening up our kids to when we’re not thinking this all the way through.”

She went on to argue that those conversations belong “in your school district and with your neighbors,” not in Congress.

The Case for Allowing Trans Kids to Play Youth Sports

Gibson recalled how, during California’s Democratic gubernatorial primary, progressive candidate Tom Steyer called on youth sports to be more trans-inclusive, saying team sports help kids not only build social skills and find community, but that it’s a great solution for the youth mental health crisis. Gibson also noted out that out of more than 500,000 college athletes in the NCAA, the number of trans women competing in women’s sports can be counted on fewer than 10 fingers.

Robinson expanded on that point and lamented some anti-trans bills not only apply to college and high school athletes, but stretch all the way to the kindergarten level.

“That’s terrible to think that you could be excluded from playing with your friends when you’re as young as five, six, and seven years old,” Robinson said. “This is about kids just having a shot.”

“I grew up as a young Black queer kid on the South Side of Chicago. Life was hard enough, and nobody was trying to tell me I couldn’t play on the sports team,” she continued. “… As adults, we should be trying to find as many ways as possible for kids to feel confident in their body, for them to feel like they’ve got friends and a safe community around them.”

Why School Board Races Are Among the Most Critical

The conversation then pivoted to the upcoming midterm election. Gibson referenced a September post on the HRC Substack post entitled “Our most consequential elections have the lowest turnout.” In that essay, author Cheryl Greene alluded to issues pertaining to public education that haven’t gotten as much attention in the current election cycle.

Robinson, a parent of two young children, said many parents of public school children have real fear whenever they send their kids off to school each morning. She drew on her own experience as the parent of a five-year-old in Washington, D.C.

“Sometimes there’s National Guard that are patrolling the streets. Sometimes we’ve got ICE agents who are literally trying to take parents away from their kids at the drop-off. There’s mass shootings that still occur, and every day I still ask him to face that world with courage,” she said. “I think we can’t underestimate what we are asking our children to confront every day that we send them out the door.”

Robinson then urged voters to look to the approximately 82,000 school board seats up for grabs across the country, saying school board members are often “the folks that are deciding the policies that impact our kids every day.”

The two then discussed the HRC’s Safe Schools Champion program, which helps identify local school board candidates who are committed to policies that affirm and welcome LGBTQ+ students. She highlighted this effort by her group as a contrast to efforts by far-right organizations like Moms for Liberty, who often run virulently anti-LGBTQ candidates who run on discriminatory platforms.

“All politics is local, and particularly these school board roles have such an immediate impact,” Robinson said. “The policies that they’re navigating decide whether or not your kid feels safe. They often decide what books your kids can or cannot read.”

“Many of these seats go without someone even running to sit in them, she added. “Think about running for school board.”

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How School Boards Have Final Say Over Book Bans

As part of the discussion in the importance of school board races, Gibson pointed to a recent report from literacy group PEN America’s finding that public schools saw a record-shattering 11,982 book bans in various school districts in just the past year. He noted that most of the bans focused on books dealing with issues of race, sexuality, and gender identity.

Robinson responded by quoting the leader of the American Library Association: “Free people read freely.” She also noted out that many banned books are about important topics like civil rights, and include books about Rosa Parks and works by celebrated Black authors like Toni Morrison and Nobel laureate Amanda Gorman.

“[Those books are] simply about who we are and our rich history as a nation and as people,” she said. “… Don’t let somebody from out of your school district come in and decide what your kids can read.”

How the White House Is Endangering Trans Youth

Gibson then asked Robinson about the danger LGBTQ youth in Virginia are facing following an announcement from the Virginia Department of Medical Assistance Services that it would stop covering gender dysphoria services for Medicaid recipients under 18 (and for CHIP recipients under age 19) starting Tuesday, October 13.

Gov. Spanberger pointed the finger at the Trump administration, saying the White House defunding that care means parents may potentially have to pay out of pocket for the care their children have been getting for years. Gibson then asked Robinson to clear up misinformation about what kind of care is involved.

“This is best practice healthcare is what we’re talking about,” Robinson said, noting that the American Medical Association and every major medical association have repeatedly said gender dysphoria care — which includes hormone therapy and puberty blockers — is perfectly safe.

“The bottom line here is that what we’re trying to do is get politicians out of your doctors’ offices. I’m sorry, but I don’t want RFK Jr. in my kid’s doctor’s appointment with me,” Robinson said. “The medical decisions for my kids should be between me and our medical provider, and that’s it.

The Need to Protect Trans Voters’ Ballots

With the midterm election less than a month away, Gibson then asked about laws on the books in 33 states that could lead to transgender voters being turned away if their ID doesn’t match their chosen name or gender.

Robinson, who joined the interview from Ohio where early voting has already begun, urged listeners to vote early if they can.

“Get it done and get it done early, because look, we know that there’s going to be all kinds of shenanigans,” Robinson said, pointing to ID issues at polling places and talk of deploying the National Guard.

She also pointed out that trans voters aren’t the only ones who may need help: “If you’re a woman that just got married and changed your name, you might need some extra support. So know that there are resources to help you, but don’t let anyone take away your right to vote.”

What Voters Can Do if They’re Turned Away

Gibson concluded the interview by asking Robinson to walk viewers through the scenario of a voter being turned away at the polls, and what options they have for recourse.

Robinson said because rules vary by state, voters should get familiar with their state’s voter ID rules, try to the polls in groups for safety purposes in order to have witnesses if any attempted voter suppression happens, and call the voter protection hotline at 866-OUR-VOTE if they run into any issues. She reminded listeners that many of the hotline’s staff are attorneys with expertise in a caller’s specific state.

“Use those resources, because you should be able to cast a ballot, even a provisional one, to make sure that your voice is heard,” Robinson said.

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• Her new “Reverse Big Ugly Tax Breaks for Data Centers Act” legislation and how taxpayers are funding the construction of data centers without their consent

• What her constituents in the Mitten State are telling her about the artificial intelligence industry and how data centers are impacting their utility bill

• Her vote for the Ratepayer Protection Act, and why she agrees with Senate Democrats that the bill doesn’t do enough to protect Americans from runaway electricity costs

• Growing public outrage over Peter Thiel’s AI-powered Flock surveillance cameras, and Democrats’ new bill aimed at reining them in

• How Democrats can hold Donald Trump and his administration accountable if they win back control of Congress in the midterms

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“The American People Are Paying for the Construction of the Data Centers”

Gibson began the interview by asking McDonald Rivet about the bill she recently introduced, dubbed the “Reverse Big Ugly Tax Breaks for Data Centers Act.” That bill repeals two significant tax breaks for data center development — the 100 percent bonus depreciation deduction and eligibility for opportunity zone tax credits — that were included in Donald Trump’s “One Big Beautiful Bill Act” (OBBBA) that became law in 2025.

The Michigan Democrat said those provisions were slipped into the legislation with little scrutiny at the time, pointing out that much of the bill was “added literally in the middle of the night,” and that “there wasn’t anybody who voted on it that knew the extent of what was there.”

McDonald Rivet emphasized that the corporations that benefited from those tax breaks are “some of the wealthiest companies in the country, linked to the wealthiest men in the country.” She noted that thanks to the OBBBA, those companies can effectively write off the full cost of building a data center, shifting those cost onto the public.

“The American people are paying for the construction of the data centers,” McDonald Rivet said. She reminded viewers that communities currently have no solid regulatory guarantee from the federal government that they even get a say in whether a data center gets built in their backyard.

The Democratic lawmaker also delved into how the bonus depreciation provision is a slick accounting maneuver that’s particularly costly to taxpayers. Companies used to take deductions for wear and tear on buildings over 30 years. But that tax break allows for those decades of deductions to instead be fully claimed in the very first year.

“It is this wild expansion of no taxes on building data centers across the country, including an incentive to do it in rural areas and build on our farmland,” McDonald Rivet said. “It’s crazy.”

Why Data Centers Are a Poor Excuse for Job Creation

Gibson observed that data centers have become an unexpected flashpoint in the 2026 midterm cycle, with Americans becoming increasingly anger about the facilities’ excessive consumption of local water supplies, skyrocketing utility bills for residents and excessive noise and air pollution. He asked what concerns McDonald Rivet’s constituents are voicing about data centers.

The congresswoman said data center concerns go hand-in-glove with broader fears about the artificial intelligence industry. She acknowledged that while most people aren’t up to speed on the details of complex policy, they’re all extremely worried about what AI means for both their own jobs, along with their children’s and grandchildren’s earning potential. She also acknowledged that fear runs deep in Michigan, which she was was “decimated by [the North American Free Trade Agreement] in the 1990s.

“Our jobs have never really recovered from that,” McDonald Rivet said. “So when we hear new technology, when we hear something that sounds like it’s not quite right, we worry about it.”

The freshman lawmaker argued for smart policy can would subject data centers to new regulations that may make them more palatable to the public. That includes giving communities actual input on where data centers would be built, and prioritizing development on land that can’t otherwise be used, like former coal plant sites and EPA Superfund locations. But she said safeguarding precious natural resources and keeping utility bills in check are also major priorities.

“In places like Michigan, nobody can pay more for their electricity bill. It is already off the charts,” McDonald Rivet said. “Our data centers need to be required, with no wiggle room, to have their own source of energy in a closed-loop system where they can’t access any of our water, especially here in the Great Lakes.”

She summed up her constituents’ view on the issue by saying that while the Mitten State needs jobs, “it can’t be done by rolling over people in the community.”

Why She Still Supports the Ratepayer Protection Act Even Though It Doesn’t Go Far Enough

While on the topic of utility costs, Gibson pointed out that Senate Democrats blocked the Ratepayer Protection Act this week. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York calling it “toothless” as it doesn’t actually contain any legally binding requirements for data center developers to pay for their own power usage. The bill had passed the House of Representatives by a margin of 417-3, with McDonald Rivet voting with the majority. Gibson asked whether her position on the bill had changed in light of Senate Democrats’ opposition.

The congresswoman called herself a “Midwest practical,” saying that while she would still vote yes if the bill came up again, she also agreed with Schumer’s assessment that the bill falls far short of what’s actually needed.

“That was the only legislation we had before us at the time in the House, and it is a teeny tiny baby step in the right direction,” she said. “But it certainly isn’t something that’s seen as a solution to the problem.”

She acknowledged that the bill’s biggest flaw is that nearly everything is voluntary, in that it only makes suggestions that states should consider when it comes to data center developers funding their own power usage. She pointed to her own experience as a mother of six to make her point.

“When I tell my 16-year-old that his curfew is 11 o’clock, that’s not me making a suggestion to him,” McDonald Rivet said. “That is me saying you have to be in this house at 11 o’clock, and if you are not, there are consequences.”

She lamented that while almost every American wants to see real limits with real consequences imposed on data center developers, the current Republican majority in Congress can’t be counted on to deliver them. However, she expressed her optimism that a potential new Democratic majority in the House of Representatives would be able to set legally binding standards for data centers and AI “with the urgency that most people want us to have.”

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How Flock Cameras Symbolize the “Broken Trust Between the Government and the American People”

Gibson then asked Congresswoman McDonald Rivet about the AI-powered Flock surveillance cameras that have popped up across the country, noting that they’re primarily funded by right-wing billionaires Peter Thiel of Palantir and Marc Andreessen of Andreesen Horowitz.

On Friday, Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York officially introduced legislation that would ban federal agencies from using Flock cameras and accessing the data they’re collecting on millions of Americans. Gibson then asked what McDonald Rivet’s constituents think about Flock cameras and whether she’d support the bill.

The Michigan Democratic observed that while Flock cameras are “a conversation in every community,” the unease surrounding them is rooted in something deeper, pointing to “the complete broken trust between the government and the American people.”

She said this is visible in seeing how most young adults are locked out of the American dream of homeownership. McDonald Rivet said that while was able to buy her first home at age 26, her own adult children in their 20s and 30s “can’t even come close to thinking about buying a house.” She said that lack of opportunity to build sealth combined with members of Congress trading in stocks and the conflict of interest that creates naturally leads to distrust of systems and institutions among most of the public.

McDonald Rivet added that while she believes local law enforcement agencies using Flock cameras are mostly doing so in good faith, she said constituents’ concerns about data collection are valid. She went on to say that while she hadn’t yet read the full text of the Sanders-Ocasio-Cortez bill, she still supported its goals.

“Our data is something that is not just a bunch of numbers. Our data are the things that are uniquely ours and make us uniquely vulnerable when they get out,” the congresswoman said. She then linked the issue to broader threats to Americans’ right to privacy, including efforts to hand over state voter rolls to the Trump administration.

“The Flock cameras are just one piece in pretty rightful concern about the way that our data is shared, manipulated, and monetized,” she said, “and we have to stand up to it.”

The Top Priority of a Potential New Democratic Majority

In the final minutes of the interview, Gibson raised a concern on many voters’ minds: even if Democrats succeed in winning back control of one or even both chambers of Congress, Trump will still control the White House, his appointees will still be in charge of all federal agencies and the Supreme Court will still continue granting him favorable rulings. Given that reality, Gibson asked McDonald Rivet what assurances Democrats can give Americans that they’ll still be able to hold the Trump administration accountable.

The freshman Democrat explained that the approach should be based on two pillars. The first would be conducting the oversight that the Republican majority has so far abandoned. She noted that if Democrats have committee gavels, they can conduct public hearings and issue subpoenas to administration officials enriching themselves in office. She said some examples of things to investigate would be people with business before the Supreme Court giving lavish gifts to justices from, along with the president’s own personal finances.

McDonald Rivet said Democrats need to use the power of committees to get to the bottom of how the president “has added $2 billion to his personal wealth since taking office less than two years ago.” She also made sure to state that this kind of Constitutionally guaranteed oversight “is not something we need the permission of the White House to do.”

The second pillar of Democrats’ strategy, McDonald Rivet said, is passing legislation “with teeth.”

“It’s not enough just to investigate it. We actually have to start to put some teeth in the laws,” she said. “The very first thing we need to do — H.R. 1 — needs to be a sweeping anti-corruption package.”

McDonald Rivet said an anti-corruption bill should ban congressional stock trading as well as prevent lawmakers from making money from prediction markets, and that this bill would also impose legally enforceable conflict-of-interest rules on both the White House and the federal judiciary. She also said a proper anti-corruption package would tackle shamelessly partisan efforts to redraw congressional maps.

“Gerrymandering is a form of corruption, and the American people see that,” she said. She explained that the main goal should be to “repair that broken trust with people who are just trying to live their lives.”

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• His op-ed urging a 30-day “stand-down” on AI development

• Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, his new “Autonomous War Command” at the Pentagon, and the threat AI-powered “killer robots” pose

• Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie’s articles of impeachment against Hegseth, and Mike Johnson’s early recess to avoid voting on them

• His call for federal investigations into Trump’s taxpayer-funded propaganda

• How a Democratic-controlled House of Representatives could still hold Trump accountable even though he’s still in the White House

• His new bill to protect kids from AI chatbots designed to manipulate them

• The growing nationwide backlash against AI data centers

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The Need for an Industry-Wide ‘Stand-Down’ of AI Development

Gibson began the conversation by asking Whitesides about his recent Washington Post op-ed calling for a month-long “stand-down” of frontier AI development. Whitesides drew on his prior experience as NASA’s chief of staff, in which he sometimes had to order a mission “stand-down” for safety reasons. He argued that AI companies should pause all frontier model development for 30 days to prevent an “artificial intelligence catastrophe.” Gibson asked whether 30 days was long enough.

“Are we going to work out everything in one month? Of course not, right?” Whitesides said. “But having a pause where people take that seriously, the frontier models do not advance for that period of time, and then we have an opportunity to get all the right experts in a room, and it can’t just be the people from the companies.”

The congressman blasted President Donald Trump for downplaying concerns about AI as a hoax, and is urging the government to seek the expertise of independent authorities from academia and the public sector — including agencies like NASA — to set binding “red lines” for the AI industry. Without them, he argued, companies will continue to rapidly develop AI in an “arms race” with their domestic competitors.

“You have one company doing one thing, another company doing another thing, and they have to get on the same page,” Whitesides said. “That’s not right for the safety of our country. It’s not right for the safety of our kids, and we’ve got to do better.”

The Threat of AI-Powered ‘Killer Robots’

Gibson then pointed to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s recent “State of the Force” speech at Quantico, where the he announced the launch of an “Autonomous War Command” to incorporate AI in every branch of the military. He then asked Whitesides if his committees plan to haul Hegseth and other top Pentagon officials before Congress if Democrats win back subpoena power in November.

“The short answer to your question is absolutely yes,” Whitesides said, “although I’m hoping that Secretary Hegseth is no longer in his position by the time that happens. I think he has been an unmitigated disaster for the Department of Defense.”

The California Democrat reminded viewers that he also sits on the Armed Services subcommittee that oversees the Pentagon’s AI work — the Cyber, IT and Innovation Subcommittee — and that he’s already introduced a bill alongside his colleagues who want to keep a close eye on how the DoD uses artificial intelligence.

“Here’s the thing that everybody’s worried about: killer robots,” Whitesides said. “Whether it’s a drone or it’s a craft or whatever different things that we have, killer robots, we have got to have a national conversation about this before we deploy these things willy-nilly.”

Whitesides went on to state that he has “absolutely no confidence that Secretary Hegseth is the right guy to lead that conversation.” He added that because the Pentagon is so large, its choices about AI will inevitably shape how this technologies spreads domestically among the American public.

Why SpeakerJohnson Sent lawmakers Home Early

As part of the discussion about Hegseth, Gibson brought up Republican Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky’s articles of impeachment against Hegseth, which led to Johnson gaveling the House of Representatives out of session early. He then asked if there are enough Republicans willing to break with Trump and impeach Hegseth, given the level of anger over the ongoing Iran war and the firings of top generals and admirals.

Whitesides confirmed the early adjournment was a direct response to Massie’s impeachment resolution. He also observed that the speaker is under significant pressure given that the impeachment measure was expected to pass.

“People are so pissed off by what’s happening in Iran and with our military, the politicization of our military, which is the finest fighting force in the world, that I think he was worried that there would be enough Republicans who would vote for it,” Whitesides said.

The first-term Democrat also said Johnson sought to protect vulnerable Republicans in swing districts, who Whitesides said know that voting to keep Hegseth “would be yet another reason why people would be willing to throw them out on November 3.”

Whitesides also said that he couldn’t predict the outcome, the reckoning is coming at some point.

“It’s going to be the first vote when we come back,” he said.

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Trump’s ‘Bats**t Crazy’ Taxpayer-Funded Propaganda Spots

This week, Whitesides co-signed a letter with Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland — ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee — asking both the Government Accountability Office and the Office of Special Counsel (which is separate from the Department of Justice) to investigate Donald Trump’s taxpayer-funded TV ads. Gibson compared the ads to North Korean-style propaganda and quipped that he just made a quarterly tax payment because Trump needed the money to run ads. He then asked the congressman what proper accountability would look like.

“Let’s be clear: people of both parties should be mad about these ads,” Whitesides said. “They’re taking your tax dollars and spending it on ads for his personal hero-worship weird thing that he’s got going on.”

“They are bats**t crazy,” he added, calling the ads “blatantly illegal.”

He explained that he and Raskin decided to petition the GAO and the Office of Special Counsel to investigate the ads because “we can’t count on the DOJ to do the right thing anymore.” The congressman accused the Trump administration of violating both appropriations law and the Hatch Act — which prohibits using an official government office to conduct partisan political activity — with the ad campaign. And while the president himself may be exempt from the Hatch Act, Whitesides said the people who produced the ads and reserved TV time are not.

“We need to see accountability for the people around the president who went along with it, and we need to see real penalties for the folks who did it,” the California Democrat said. “This is, of course, just another example of the administration knowing that something is illegal and still doing it.”

How a Democratic Congress Can Hold the Trump Administration Accountable

At that point in the conversation, Gibson noted that even if Democrats win back control of both chambers of Congress in November, Trump will still hold the veto pen, his appointees will still run federal agencies and the 6-3 conservative majority Supreme Court will still favor the administration. He then asked the congressman how Americans can be assured that a new Democratic majority can pursue accountability for the Trump administration.

Whitesides said Democrats’ plan is twofold: first, a Democratic majority would have the ability to stop Trump’s legislative agenda dead in its tracks. Then, they could offer their own vision for the country that’s laser-focused on addressing the affordability of essential basic needs like healthcare, food, childcare and housing.

“We are going to set out a proactive agenda to show what a government that is responsible and responsive to the people looks like,” Whitesides said. He added that the House Armed Services Committee is a “target-rich environment” where Democrats can issue subpoenas to investigate “thousands of examples of wrongdoing across the administration.”

He did, however, acknowledge that there are limits of oversight given that Trump still controls the Justice Department until January of 2029.

“I don’t have any faith, to be perfectly frank, in Trump’s Department of Justice,” he said. “But we can produce that evidence. We can send it to the appropriate regulators. Perhaps some of these regulators will do the right thing.”

How to Stop Manipulative AI Chatbots from Taking Advantage of Kids

On the same day as this interview, Whitesides introduced a bill aimed at protecting children from AI chatbots. Gibson called the issue uniquely important, and brought up examples of chatbots encouraging minors who were contemplating violence or suicide to go through with their plans.

Whitesides said that as the parent of a 14-year-old daughter and a 16-year-old son, he and his wife were “in the thick of it” when it came to the prevalence of AI in children’s lives. He said today’s parents are forced to be “guidance counselor, IT administrator, all these jobs rolled into one” just to try and their kids safe.

Whitesides explained that his bill focuses on companies that use textbook emotional manipulation to keep kids engaged with their product.

“They are trying to use techniques like, ‘Don’t go away too long, I’ll miss you,’ and other emotional taglines that get kids hooked,” the congressman said. “I don’t think anyone could disagree that that is just plain evil.”

The bill would not only ban emotionally manipulative design, but would also require chatbots to recognize when they are talking to minors, and impose other protections to strengthen safety for children. Whitesides said that part of his inspiration for writing the bill was meeting with grieving families, who convinced him that simply filing lawsuits against the companies behind the technology was not enough.

“I have talked to parents of kids who have committed suicide after they’ve had extensive engagements with these toxic chatbots, and they just rip your heart out,” Whitesides said. “We cannot rely just purely on product liability. It is our responsibility as legislators to get in front of this.”

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How Data Centers Became One of the Biggest Issues in the Midterms

Gibson focused his last question on AI data centers, pointing out that they’ve become a major flashpoint in the midterms. He observed that Republican Senator Jon Husted of Ohio has been labeled as the “face of data centers” by his Democratic opponent, former Senator Sherrod Brown, which led him to sponsor legislation called the “Ratepayers Protection Act.”

That bill passed the House with just three “no” votes, with Whitesides casting his vote with the majority. Senate Democrats went on to block it, calling the bill a “toothless” measure that doesn’t include any legally binding language forcing developers to actually do anything about runaway utility costs. Gibson asked whether Whitesides had changed his position.

Whitesides didn’t address his vote on the bill directly, but talked instead about the real concerns Americans have about data centers and Donald Trump’s casual dismissal of the communities pushing back against them.

“I’m concerned about air pollution in my neighborhood. I’m concerned about noise pollution. I’m concerned about water use in my home, and of course, I’m concerned about energy costs,” Whitesides said, recounting concerns of local residents. “Those are not hoaxes, Mr. President. Those are real concerns of everyday Americans from all political parties from every state in this country.”

He also acknowledged that local communities are being shut out of the development process as various state legislatures hand out “fat tax breaks” to data center developers. He then said Congress has the responsibility to give communities real power when it comes to whether data centers get built.

“It may be that there’s a community out there that wants to have this, and values the tax revenue,” Whitesides said. “If that community decides that that’s right for them, that should be their prerogative. What I am opposed to is ramming these data centers into places where the people don’t want them.”

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Lamb, who represented Pennsylvania’s 17th Congressional District from 2018 to 2022 and ran against Fetterman in the 2022 Democratic U.S. Senate primary, didn’t hold back on his former rival. But he expressed hope that Democrats in Pennsylvania can show the model for the party as it builds toward 2028.

Gibson and Lamb covered multiple topics, including:

• Whether Sen. Fetterman should resign, and if he even still wants the job

• If the senator’s 2022 stroke significantly changed him or if it simply revealed who he always was

• The likelihood Fetterman switches his political affiliation to save his career

• How Fetterman’s support of the Iran war has cost Pennsylvanians

• The shifting cultural and political backlash against the Israeli government, including the Ed Sheeran tour scandal

• Pennsylvania’s competitive 2026 House races and the ideological diversity of Pennsylvania Democrats

• How Democrats should focus their accountability should they retake Congress

• Why even deep-red rural Pennsylvania districts are trending blue

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Lamb Demands Fetterman Step Down

Gibson opened by asking Lamb about comments he’d made at a recent public event suggesting Fetterman no longer wants to be a senator. His one-time primary rival responded by saying Fetterman “absolutely should resign.”

The former congressman noted he’d avoided calling for Fetterman’s resignation for the past year and a half out of deference to Pennsylvania voters. However, he said the recent bombshell Wall Street Journal report about Fetterman phoning it in on the job was the breaking point. He citing Fetterman’s refusal to attend an event for paralyzed veterans and blowing off a solemn funeral for police officers killed in the line of duty.

“That’s just like a massive red flag that this guy needs to go, and he’s not functioning in the job,” Lamb said.

Did Fetterman’s Stroke Mark a Change, or Did it Reveal Fetterman’s True Nature?

Later, Gibson pointed out that Mercer County Democratic Party Chair Judy Hines told the Wall Street Journal that Fetterman “worked his heart out” on the campaign trail in 2022. He then asked Lamb if the debilitating stroke Fetterman suffered just before the election fundamentally changed him, or if it just fully exposed the senator’s personality.

Lamb, who recalled standing just inches away from Fetterman during a U.S. Senate primary debate, said it was the latter.

“To me, he was actually pretty similar before the stroke,” Lamb said, pointing out that Fetterman “couldn’t really answer basic questions before the stroke either.”

The former Pennsylvania congressman argued that voters likely were enamored by the image Fetterman projected rather than who he actually was, and that the senator’s lack of “core fundamental beliefs” meant “he could change and become anyone at any time.” Lamb acknowledged the stroke may have “accelerate[d]” or “ma[de] it more obvious,” but noted: “I think that was there all along.”

Will Fetterman Join the GOP?

Gibson then pointed to one local Pennsylvania Democratic Party official who called for Fetterman’s resignation all the way back back in March 2025. That official said Fetterman’s votes for Trump’s most controversial cabinet picks like former Attorney General Pam Bondi, along with his refusal to hold town halls and joining himself at the hip with Republican Senator Dave McCormick was inexcusable.

Lamb opined that Fetterman “probably will” switch his party affiliation to Republican because “there’s really no other path to his survival.”

But the former congressman said that the even worse offense to him was Fetterman’s support for President Donald Trump’s war with Iran, which the president launched in conjunction with Israel in February. Lamb said the emergence of affordability as the key issue in the midterms is largely due to that war, and reminded viewers that Fetterman has supported it every step of the way.

“It has cost the average people billions and billions of dollars at the pump,” Lamb said, calling the war “one of the worst decisions we’ve ever made as a country” and labeling Fetterman as “the biggest cheerleader for it.”

Gibson then mentioned that Fetterman had previously cast the deciding vote to kill a War Powers Act resolution that would have reined in Trump’s ability to wage war on Iran, due to his fervent support of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He then asked Lamb if he thought Fetterman prioritizes Israel over his own constituents.

“It’s a fair assessment,” Lamb said, while acknowledging that criticism of Netanyahu shouldn’t be equated with criticism of Israel as a sovereign state or the Jewish community. Lamb said that roughly 200,000 Pennsylvanians have lost their health insurance since Fetterman has been in office, and yet the senator has been far more vocal in his support for Israel than he has for his constituents who need healthcare.

“You trust me, go out and try to find a place where [Fetterman] has addressed that issue or stood up for those people,” Lamb said. “He never has.”

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How Can Voters Have Accountability for Derelict Senators?

The conversation then pivoted to the prospect of recalls for U.S. senators, with Gibson pointing out that as a Kentuckian, he’s had Mitch McConnell as a senator for as long as he’s been alive and yet has never felt less represented. He asked Lamb whether the Senate’s six-year terms for members combined with no constitutional recall process is harmful for democracy.

Lamb explained that the framers initially designed the Senate to be insulated from political pressure, similar to a court (U.S. senators weren’t directly elected by voters until the ratification of the 17th Amendment). However, he went on to say that the Senate’s independence has been tainted by the influence of money in politics.

“We should be trying to get this situation with money in politics under control, so that someone like [Fetterman] can’t just use their platform to suck up to Elon Musk or the AI companies,” Lamb said. He contrasted the Senate with the House, which he said has “a little bit more churn” due to members only serving two-year terms.

Gibson raised the counterargument that Fetterman and some of his defenders might make, that he still voted with Democrats on things like confirming former President Joe Biden’s judicial appointees, and that represents a purple state with a significant number of Republican constituents. Lamb rejected that argument outright.

Lamb went on to say that Fetterman’s real influence lies not in his votes for things that are already assured with or without his support, but in his public platform, which he uses to “attack everyone else in the Democratic Party besides himself, promote the cause of Israel, promote the Iran War and now increasingly compliment Dave McCormick and Donald Trump.”

How Democrats’ Path to a House Majority Runs Through Pennsylvania

Shifting to the midterms, Gibson named several competitive Pennsylvania House races in which incumbent Republicans are facing tight reelection battles, including districts currently represented by Rob Bresnahan, Brian Fitzpatrick and Scott Perry. Lamb insisted that “Pennsylvania is absolutely at the center of this whole thing.”

He credited the Pennsylvania Democratic Party organization for recruiting strong candidates, and reminded viewers that Governor Josh Shapiro, who is running for another term this fall, enjoys widespread popularity. He added that other Democrats eyeing 2028 will be watching how Pennsylvania Democrats built their coalition.

Gibson also pointed out the ideological diversity among Pennsylvania’s Democratic candidates, saying that the Keystone State has both progressive champions like 3rd District nominee Chris Rabb, who is running to represent a deep-blue part of Philadelphia, to moderates like Gov. Shapiro.

Lamb said the nature of Pennsylvania, which includes both densely populated urban areas and rural Appalachian small towns, forces the party to build a big-tent coalition that makes room for a wide array of policy ideas rather than hewing to one specific ideology.

“It just takes two to tango,” Lamb said, describing his own experience working across the various factions of the Democratic Party when he was in Congress.

How Should Democrats Pursue Accountability?

Gibson then asked how a potential Democratic-controlled Congress should prioritize impeaching Trump and other officials versus conducting investigations into the various corruption scandals that have become so commonplace in the second Trump administration.

Lamb said Democrats “have to start with the kind of most violent and shocking things, which are murder, torture, imprisonment,” pointing to the administration’s extrajudicial killings of more than 220 people in the Caribbean, and deplorable conditions at Florida’s now-defunct “Alligator Alcatraz” immigrant detention camp.

He also said Trump’s personal financial dealings deserve a significant amount of public scrutiny should Democrats retake the House.

“There’s just no precedent in our history for someone making $2 billion in a year while serving as president,” he said.

Gibson also drew on Lamb’s experience as a former military prosecutor, asking him specifically about accountability for the boat strikes, and whether court-martials of top military officials are realistic under a potential future Democratic administration.

Lamb explained that while “it’s a military crime to execute an unlawful order,” it’s difficult to assigning individual culpability up a long chain of command. He cited the bombing of the girls’ school in Minab, Iran as a case that might more clearly constitute “a dereliction of duty.” And he emphasized that accountability should target “the decision makers and the people at the top,” rather than focus on lower-level personnel.

Pennsylvania Voters Identify the One Issue Driving Them to the Polls

Finally, Gibson closed out the conversation by pointing to surprise Democratic victories, like that of Brandon Dukes, who eked out a razor-thin victory in a Pennsylvania state legislative district that Trump won by more than 30 points in 2024, and that Republicans had controlled for decades. Lamb noted that voters he’s spoken with are singularly focused on the affordability crisis, and that this will likely be the number-one issue for voters headed into November.

“I think the number one thing driving what’s about to happen is issues of affordability and the economy generally,” Lamb said, citing $4.59 gas prices in western Pennsylvania. He also acknowledged that former Republicans showing up at Democratic events are increasingly raising concern about corruption and are worried about “what kind of country are we going to be raising our kids in.”

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• Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s comments on “woke” politics and whether they hurt or helped Democrats and the criminal justice reform movement

• The differences between abolishing police and abolishing ICE

• Why far-right pundit Tucker Carlson is really endorsing progressive Democratic Michigan U.S. Senate candidate Abdul El-Sayed

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Did AOC’s Quip About ‘Woke’ Politics Alienate the Democratic Base?

Gibson opened the interview by asking Aleem about his August column on Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York’s attempt to distance herself from the “defund the police” slogan that sprung out of the George Floyd uprising of 2020. Aleem said that Ocasio-Cortez’s comment that “Woke 1.0 was crazy” — which she attributed to a Democratic member of the New York City council — probably did more harm than good, even when quoted in proper context.

“‘Woke one was crazy’ was not the sort of language that I would use, and I can understand why that was alienating to some people,” Aleem said. He added that the congresswoman was “sort of throwing the criminal justice reform movement under the bus a bit.”

Still, he applauded the Bronx congresswoman for noting that the 2020 uprising that was also in large part defined by the Covid-19 lockdown was an unusual political moment that produced a diverse array of ideas, and that “language should evolve to reflect the change in moments.”

Why Police Abolition and ICE Abolition Are Totally Different

Both Gibson and Aleem acknowledged that while “abolish the police” and “defund the police” were politically unpopular, Gibson pointed out that “abolish ICE” has become a mainstream plank of Democratic politics in 2026.

Aleem observed that while police abolition never enjoyed high approval ratings even during the height of the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor protests, this could be due to its association with more fringe anarchist movements rather than democratic socialist ideals, which call for a robust state that allows for greater “regulation of human affairs.” Both he and Gibson also noted that while local police are seen as an extension of elected municipal governments, ICE is broadly viewed as the private “goon squad” of the president.

Gibson also pointed out that Michigan U.S. Senate candidate Abdul El-Sayed has openly supported abolishing ICE, even though he’s running in a statewide election in a purple state that flipped between Trump, Joe Biden and back to Trump between 2016 and 2024. The MS NOW columnist suggested that just as Trump’s approval rating has cratered, so has mainstream America’s opinion of his immigration crackdown.

“[ICE] has obviously been a militarized kind of quasi-secret police force that Trump has used... to degrade and to dehumanize... immigrants of all kinds and U.S. citizens,” he said.

How Tucker Carlson’s Endorsement of El-Sayed Is a Fox-in-the-Henhouse Moment

Aleem then pointed out how far-right commentator Tucker Carlson has sought to distance himself from Trump by throwing his endorsement behind El-Sayed, despite him being what Gibson described as a “progressive leftist Muslim running in a swing state.” In his most recent MS NOW column, Aleem suggested that Carlson’s endorsement “is a product of his flipping on President Donald Trump over the war with Iran.”

Aleem told Raw America that Trump’s decision to go to war with Iran was widely seen as a betrayal of the MAGA coalition due to its longstanding belief in isolationism. However, he cautioned against taking Carlson’s endorsement in good faith, saying that the former primetime Fox News host “engages in a lot of sophistry and disinformation” and that his opposition to Trump should be taken with a grain of salt.

“Sometimes he will present as an ally of the left, seemingly to some people because of his criticisms of Israel,” Aleem said. “But again, his motives and his end goal, while they might overlap on a policy standpoint of cutting off aid to Israel, does not mean that he is a true ally of the left.”

Is Hunter Biden’s $LAPTOP Meme Coin a Grift?

Gibson then pivoted to Aleem’s September 10 column about Hunter Biden’s recent announcement that he was launching a meme coin dubbed “$LAPTOP.” In the essay, Aleem argued that the timing of Hunter Biden’s meme coin was suspicious given that he’s been on a media blitz doing interviews with various news outlets (like Raw America) as well as with far-right conspiracy theorists, extremists and white supremacists like Nick Fuentes and Candace Owens.

“He sat there and sort of normalized [Owens], and also praised some of her conspiracy theories,” Aleem said of Hunter Biden.

The MS NOW writer connected the launch of $LAPTOP to Biden’s reported financial troubles, referncing court documents revealing that the former president’s son was “several million dollars in debt” after years of legal battles.

Aleem was also blunt about Hunter Biden’s choice of using a meme coin as a money-making vehicle, rather than writing a book or joining the lecture circuit. Gibson observed that meme coins are particularly susceptible to “rugpull” schemes in which ordinary investors are left holding the bag while the person who launched the meme coin — as Donald Trump did himself in 2025 — makes millions.

“It should pretty much always be understood as scammy and as a grift,” Aleem said of meme coins. He added that they’re “a purely speculative asset” that “can only derive value from demand and expectation of future value” and that some people are “probably in the process going to get screwed over by this.”

Aleem did credit Hunter Biden for his genuine and earnest reflections on his own sobriety journey, suggesting that his battle with addiction was “something he could write a book about.”

Will Trump’s $5,000 Check Promise Work on Voters?

To close out the interview, Gibson asked Aleem about Trump’s proposal to send Americans $5,000 checks if Republicans keep their House and Senate majorities after the November midterms, which was the subject of Aleem’s September 11 column.

As the MS NOW columnist explained in his piece, the idea is already seen as particularly dubious by both the American electorate and by Congress. This is partially due to the estimated $1.3 trillion cost of the proposal, as well as Trump’s lack of credibility after failing to follow through on previous promises to send out checks.

However, Aleem cautioned that Americans shouldn’t underestimate the president’s ability to connect with large numbers of voters, whether it’s through promises of free money or anything else.

“I thought people could see through his con from 2016, and I was wrong about that,” Aleem said. “He has an extraordinary ability to defy our expectations and our predictions.”

At the same time, the columnist argued that the idea of sending out $5,000 checks is particularly cynical given Trump’s dismal record on affordability, both in his tariffs that dramatically increased the price of imported goods, to the expiration of Affordable Care Act subsidies that have caused health insurance premiums to go up by hundreds of dollars a month for millions of Americans. He said Trump’s check proposal was “dripping with condescension for the American voter,” and that it wasn’t unlike “the way you might dangle a toy in the face of an infant.”

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• Whether corporate Democrats are trying to derail Michigan U.S. Senate candidate Abdul El-Sayed’s campaign to argue leftists can’t win swing states

• What the Democratic establishment’s coordinated attack against Twitch streamer Hasan Piker actually reveals

• What Hakeem Jeffries’ secret meeting with Jared Kushner could signify about his priorities as speaker should Democrats retake the House

• Why the Republican Party has embraced “revolution” while Democratic leaders remain committed to the status quo

• The rise of insurgent candidates like Zohran Mamdani and the competing 2028 primary visions of “restoration” and “transformation”

• How conservatives’ “unitary executive theory” has created an imperial presidency

• Whether a future Democratic president should wield the powers of the presidency for good as Donald Trump has for himself

• If the U.S. is capable of reining in extreme wealth through a billionaires’ tax and/or a philosophy of limitarianism

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Could Abdul El-Sayed Break the Democratic Establishment?

Gibson and Sirota began by discussing Dr. Abdul El-Sayed’s U.S. Senate campaign in Michigan, where the progressive challenger defeated establishment favorite Haley Stevens despite being outspent by tens of millions of dollars. Gibson asked whether El-Sayed winning in a swing state like Michigan could “open the floodgates” to more leftist candidates challenging establishment Democrats across the country.

Sirota agreed with that premise, saying the Democratic Party’s donor class views an El-Sayed victory as uniquely dangerous.

“I think if you’re a corporate Democrat, the idea of many many Abdul El-Sayeds across the country in swing districts and swing states is terrifying to you,” Sirota said.

“[Corporate donors are] willing to potentially have the Democratic Party lose the general election … if that faction perceives that to be the cost of that faction retaining its power inside of the institution,” he added.

Are Corporate Democrats Using Hasan Piker to Attack Abdul El-Sayed by Proxy?

Gibson then pivoted to the Democratic establishment’s intense pressure campaign against leftist Twitch streamer Hasan Piker, in which party leaders are forcing candidates to condemn the immensely popular leftist figure over past statements he made that he has since apologized for. He then asked Sirota whether it’s accurate to suggest that the Hasan Piker campaign is actually a proxy attack on Abdul El-Sayed, since Democrats can’t directly attack their own nominee in a must-win Senate race.

Sirota agreed with that assessment, calling it a “kitchen-sink strategy” meant to throw everything possible at the party’s populist wing. He then suggested that the real threat Hasan Piker poses isn’t ideological, but rather that he’s unwilling to be a complicit mouthpiece for the party.

“[Piker] has built a truly independent media channel that doesn’t play by the rules and doesn’t answer to either party’s political apparatus,” Sirota said.

Gibson then pointed out that Democratic strategists repeatedly called for a “Joe Rogan of the left” to emerge in the aftermath of the 2024 election. And he noted the irony in that, like Rogan, Piker is someone using new media to engage with an audience of millions of voters in the millennial and Gen Z demographics.

“Say what you will about Joe Rogan, he’s not reading the Republican Party’s talking points,” Sirota said, arguing that any real leftist version of Joe Rogan has to be completely independent of partisan influence or control. He then drew on his decades of work in Democratic politics, emphasizing that the party’s establishment values “loyalty and control” over everything else.

Should Democrats Be Worried About Hakeem Jeffries’ Meeting with Jared Kushner?

Gibson then asked Sirota about House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries’ (D-N.Y.) recent meeting with Donald Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and whether that means Jeffries would be willing to cut deals with members of the president’s inner circle if Democrats retake the House of Representatives and make Jeffries the next speaker.

Sirota said the Kushner meeting should be viewed in the context of his recent comments on Meet the Press in which he opposed Medicare for All. When factoring in both Jeffries’ refusal to accommodate the Democratic base’s widespread calls for Medicare for All along with his decision to meet behind closed doors with Jared Kushner, Sirota warned this sends the message that “Even if you vote for us, there won’t be real change.”

“I don’t think that’s good for the Democratic Party,” Sirota said. “I don't think it's good for democracy, and I think that’s what Jeffries has done.”

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The 2028 Primary Battle: ‘Restoration’ Versus ‘Transformation’

Gibson observed that despite the Republican Party’s open embrace of “corruption, authoritarianism and war” during Trump’s second term, it has been more willing than Democrats to empower its young leaders while Democrats like Nancy Pelosi refuse to cede power despite giving the illusion of stepping back to allow the next generation to lead.

Sirota then argued that Republicans have actually been the party of “revolution” more than Democrats, pointing out that it was less than two decades between Barry Goldwater’s 1964 loss and Ronald Reagan’s election to the presidency in 1980. He then pointed out that the GOP has consistently been letting its base drive its vision through moments like the Tea Party of the 2010s and the MAGA era of the 2020s, while Democrats have been viewed as the party of the status qup.

The Lever News founder cautioned that the GOP’s revolutionary arc is reaching its denouement, similar to how the French Revolution ended in the cult of personality centered around Napoleon Bonaparte. However, he said it would be “healthy” for the Democratic Party to embrace revolution of its own.

“I think for the for the people who are currently in power in the Democratic Party — who have spent 30 years becoming rich, famous, and powerful — clinging on to that internal party power even as the party has lost elections and lost policy battles, I think that's terrifying to them,” Sirota said. “They've had a good run for themselves for the last 30 or 40 years, even if it's been a terrible run for the country, so they're going to fight as hard as they can to stop that kind of uprising in the party from moving forward.”

Gibson pointed out that the progressive wing of ther Democratic Party has seen several major victories, pointing to New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani’s victory over the Cuomo dynasty, and several leftist candidates unseating establishment incumbents in various deep-blue House districts. He then posited that the 2028 primary could be seen as a battle between candidates like Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear and California Gavin Newsom who would call for unifying and moving forward rather than accountability, and justice-focused candidates running on making sure that the Trump administration’s repeated violations of the Constitution and federal law are prosecuted.

Sirota said the two competing visions could also be defined as “restoration” and “transformation.” He noted that some candidates will likely run on returning society to a “pre-Trump normal,” while ignoring the conditions that made it possible for Donald Trump to be elected to office in the first place. And he cautioned that a torrent of corporate money will go toward tilting the scales in favor of “restoration” candidates.

“Big corporations, oligarchs, billionaires-they were doing great before Trump,” he said. “They're doing they're doing even better now, but they're fine with going back to to the working class getting destroyed, hope and change becoming more of the same.”

How Trump Is Taking Advantage of an ‘Imperial Presidency’ and Whether Democrats Will Do the Same

The conversation then turned to Sirota’s Master Plan podcast, which is in its second season and focusing on the immense powers of the U.S. presidency. Gibson asked Sirota to expand on the season’s premise that the conservative legal theory of a “unitary executive” — in which the president assumes full control of the entire federal government — has now been fully realized.

Sirota argued the idea of an “imperial presidency” traces back to Watergate, in which Congress sought to constrain the presidency after Richard Nixon resigned in disgrace. He then explained how the subsequent years led to the conservative movement regrouping to elect Ronald Reagan, with the far-right Heritage Foundation guiding his policies through its Mandate for Leadership playbook (which was also the predecessor to Project 2025).

The expansion of executive powers then continued through 9/11 after then-Vice President Dick Cheney took advantage of a national emergency to ram through sweeping authoritarian surveillance powers. He then noted that former President Barack Obama continued the expansion of presidential powers by “assert[ing] the right for a president to have a kill list” to conduct assassinations of U.S. citizens around the world.

“How much power do we want one person to have? Because this was not the way the country was founded,” Sirota said.

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Do Democrats Have the Stomach to Use Expanded Presidential Power to Its Fullest Potential?

Gibson reminded viewers of the scene in the film The Dark Knight (2008) in which Christian Bale’s Batman instructed Morgan Freeman’s Lucius Fox to use an “unethical” and “dangerous” surveillance tool for the sole purpose of locating Heath Ledger’s Joker, with the promise to shut it all down once the Joker was apprehended. He then asked Sirota if he thought Democrats were capable of using the massively expanded powers of the presidency that conservatives ushered in to do all the things the base calls for, with the goal of dismantling it all before the next Republican can use those powers to reverse progress.

Sirota pointed out that as part of the final episode of this season of Master Plan, he interviewed numerous prospective 2028 Democratic presidential candidates and asked them this specific question. He said most of them believed that the next Democratic president should use all available executive powers to achieve their goals. He added that it “makes a whole lot of sense” for the next president to impose strict new limits on the ability of presidents to participate in self-enrichment and corruption. But he was also skeptical that Democratic candidates would be willing to upset the donor class too much once they were back in power.

“Are Democrats really willing to use the power that’s available to the president to do the things that they’re promising, even the things that will make their donors... upset?” Sirota asked, reminding viewers that the private equity tax loophole Democrats had promised to end is still open.

How Democrats Can Ready Themselves for Retaliation from Wall Street

Gibson asked whether a Democratic president who aggressively used executive power to rein in Wall Street and big corporations — for example, a hypothetical President Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — could trigger a “capital strike,” with corporations and financial institutions withholding jobs and investment to exact revenge.

“I do think that capital will side with authoritarianism against democracy if democracy is perceived to be a threat to capital,” Sirota said, saying there have been multiple examples of this throughout history. He noted that FDR provided the blueprint for how to weather that backlash by “never allow[ing] himself to be cast as part of the problem” and successfully ran for reelection during the height of the Great Depression openly embracing the hatred of Wall Street and corporate executives.

Gibson pointed out that progressives called on former President Joe Biden to use expansive presidential powers to forgive all federal student debt. Activists with Strike Debt/The Debt Collective referenced language in the Higher Education Act of 1965 making it clear that the secretary of the U.S. Department of Education had sole control over all federally issued student debt and could simply cancel it if a president ordered it done. But when Biden — who represented Delaware in the U.S. Senate, which is known as the main hub of student debt servicing companies — was asked directly whether he would enact such a policy, he flat-out refused.

Sirota argued this type of refusal to use power to do good is what creates the conditions that allow authoritarian leaders like Trump to take power.

“I genuinely think that liberals are afraid of the use of power,” Sirota said, lamenting that many liberals seem to view the concept of power itself as a bad thing. He was emphatic that change won’t come without conflict.

“Power will have to be taken through democratic means, and the oligarchs will be mad about it, and it will be a loud, messy confrontation, and that’s okay,” he said.

Is ‘Limitarianism’ a Viable Path Forward?

To closing the conversation, Gibson asked Sirota about limitarianism — laid out in Dutch political scientist Ingrid Robeyns’ 2024 book “The Case Against Extreme Wealth” — in which there would be a limit imposed on how much wealth a single individual could accumulate. Gibson argued that democracies may be in an “arms race” against centibillionaires like Elon Musk to rein in their ability to use their wealth to drastically reshape governments in their favor before it’s too late.

Sirota framed the debate as the latest iteration of the ongoing battle between capitalism and democracy, warning that concentrated capital may now be able to exceed democracy’s attempts to “guardrail” it. However, he said a wealth tax shouldn’t be the end goal but rather a corrective measure toward a fairer tax system that adequately taxes the wealthiest at a rate that would render them unable to become more powerful than democratic institutions. The Lever News founder mentioned a RAND Corporation estimate that workers would have earned roughly $70 trillion more over the last 50 years had wage growth actually kept pace with productivity.

“We’re talking about real confiscation,” Sirota said. “Like, an economy built on confiscation.”

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• How Nixon’s people-powered campaign overcame an 18-to-1 fundraising disadvantage to win the Democratic primary

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How Nixon Won Despite Being Outspent 18-to-1 Fundraising Gap

Gibson opened by noting that Nixon had been massively outspent in her primary against establishment favorite Alexander Vindman — who, to his credit — immediately endorsed Nixon and even asked his fundraisers to donate to her campaign.

Nixon confirmed that she was outspent by a margin of $18 million to $1 million. She still won by an 11-point margin, and credited her victory to her campaign’s strategy of grassroots organizing. She added that as a union organizer and member of a union family, organizing was practically in her blood.

“It’s just good old-fashioned grassroots organizing,” Nixon said.

Why Nixon Thinks a Progressive Can Win in a Republican State

Gibson pressed Nixon on running as an unapologetic progressive in Florida, where Democrats haven’t held a statewide elected office since Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) left the Senate in 2019. Nixon responded that she isn’t framing the race in terms of left vs. right, but in terms of “top versus bottom.”

She also accused Sen. Moody of protecting her corporate donors in the health insurance industry at the expense of everyday Floridians, blaming the expired Affordable Care Act subsidies on Moody’s party and its subservience to corporate interests. She also lamented that millions of dollars in funds meant for needy children were diverted to defeat abortion rights and marijuana legalization ballot measures

“This is about right and wrong. It’s about ending corruption in Washington, D.C.,” Nixon said of her campaign.

Nixon Says Her Embrace of Medicare for All Isn’t a Liability, But a Strength

Gibson cited an Associated Press report finding that Floridians have been hit with particularly high healthcare costs following the expiration of ACA tax credits last year, and asked Nixon whether building her campaign around support Medicare for All was a political risk in a Republican-dominated state. Nixon insisted her support for universal healthcare was actually a secret weapon, citing conversations with tens of thousands of voters across all 67 counties.

“Medical debt is the leading cause of bankruptcy. People are literally going bankrupt because they’re trying to stay alive,” Nixon said.

Drawing on her own experience as a single mother of more than a decade who had to sometimes choose between buying asthma medication and other necessities, Nixon cited a Yale study finding that a universal healthcare program like Medicare for All could save the federal government more than $1 trillion annually while saving roughly 114,000 lives each year.

“The only people that are upset about the idea of us having universal health care are insurance companies, and I don’t care about insurance companies,” she said.

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Holding Insurance Companies Accountable After Hurricanes

Gibson, who in 2022 worked as a flood insurance adjuster in Florida after Hurricane Ian, pointed to the recent pattern of major insurance companies denying wind claims and asked Nixon about Florida’s decision to bail out insurance companies rather than homeowners following the historic storm. Nixon didn’t dispute that assessment.

“The biggest recipients of welfare in this country are corporations and billionaires,” Nixon said.

She proposed a fully state-funded public insurance option that could lower premiums by directing savings toward a catastrophe fund instead of shareholders, using Florida’s insurer-of-last-resort, Citizens, as a starting point. She also attributed to Ashley Moody’s inaction on the issue to her deference to her donors in the insuranceindustry

“[Moody] didn’t check them for slow-walking people’s claims,” Nixon said, describing some Florida homeowners forced to sell to private equity firms after giving up on getting their insurance claims paid.

How Nixon’s Banned-Books Bookstore Is Fighting DeSantis’ ‘War on Woke’

Gibson then pivoted to Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis’ (R) “war on woke,” and asked Nixon about her Café Resistance Bookstore and Coffee Shop. The Florida lawmaker opened the Jacksonville business in direct response to Florida’s book bans, which proliferated after DeSantis signed a series of laws aimed at silencing Florida’s Black and LGBTQ+ communities.

Nixon described the bookstore as a “third space” that not only stocks banned books, but offers free tutoring, mentorship services for Black boys led by Black men and free contraceptive care paired with conversations connecting visitors to low-cost healthcare resources. Nixon also said the store functions as a popular meeting spot for community organizing groups.

“ICE is not welcome,” she said of Café Resistance.

Nixon’s Bullhorn Protest on the Floor of the House of Representatives Against Florida’s Gerrymander

Gibson brought up one of Nixon’s most viral moments from earlier this year, when she used a bullhorn on the floor of the Florida House of Representatives in Tallahassee to protest Florida Republicans’ new congressional redistricting map. Republicans proposed the map to give themselves an additional advantage in the U.S. House of Representatives following the Supreme Court’s Louisiana v. Callais ruling that significantly weakened the Voting Rights Act.

Nixon reminded viewers it wasn’t her first such protest, pointing out that she had also staged a sit-in against a 2022 map that eliminated two Black-majority congressional districts.

“I knew they were going to try to talk over me like they did last time,” she said of her decision to bring the bullhorn.

The Florida Democrat pointed out that the new maps violated a 2010 citizen-led ballot measure explicitly banning partisan gerrymandering. She also noted that Gov. DeSantis even unveiled the maps on Fox News in color-coded form before he even notified legislators. The protest led to Nixon’s formal reprimand — the first in the Florida legislature in 20 years — and a later arrest after leading a sit-in at the governor’s office.

“What good is decorum and professionalism when democracy is literally being attacked?” she said.

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How Nixon Is Counting on People Power to Flip a Red Senate Seat

Gibson closed by referencing Congressman Maxwell Frost’s (D-Fla.) comment that Florida isn’t a red state, but rather an “under-organized” one, and asked Nixon if she feels that her organizing prowess can lead to her victory in November. Nixon lauded her campaign’s army of volunteers and said that it was an essential tool to turn out votes.

“We have over 40,000, maybe 50,000 volunteers in the state of Florida, and people are ready,” Nixon said.

She then made a direct appeal for financial support to run television ads across the state, while also stressing that donations go toward grassroots organizing rather than being spent “frivolously” on consultants.

“I did not get this far to lose. I need your back,” she said, urging supporters to visit her campaign website at AngieNixon.com.

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Raw America is proud to be able to bring you regular live conversations with people shaping the news, like Angie Nixon. Earlier this week we also spoke with Epstein researchers Ellie Leonard and Kait Justice, who have been out-hustling billionaire-owned legacy media outlets to cover the most explosive Epstein angles. This work can only continue if readers like you, who believe in the power of independent journalism, chip in to become paying subscribers. Upgrade your free subscription to a paying one right now for just 22 cents a day. We’re counting on you.

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Gibson, Leonard and Justice covered multiple topics including:

• New evidence suggesting Epstein was at Trump Tower in November 2016 while then-President-elect Donald Trump was putting together his Cabinet

• The deep ties between Epstein, Trump and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick

• Recently confirmed Attorney General Todd Blanche’s efforts to stop the release of millions of pages of Epstein files

• Wall Street executives’ alleged role enabling Epstein’s human trafficking over many years

• Epstein’s ties to foreign governments and as-yet untranslated foreign-language documents in the Epstein files

• Former Attorney General Bill Barr long-standing family’s connections to Epstein

• Katie Phng’s ongoing lawsuit against the DOJ and a federal judge’s contempt threat against Blanche

• Lingering questions about the circumstances of Epstein’s suspicious 2019 death in federal prison in Manhattan

• The stalled investigation into Epstein’s Zorro Ranch in New Mexico

• What personally drives both journalists to pursue the truth in the Epstein files

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Was Epstein Spotted at Trump Tower While He was Picking His Cabinet?

Gibson began the interview by asking about Leonard’s reporting that Jeffrey Epstein may have been at Trump Tower on November 13, 2016 — the same day then-President-elect Donald Trump was meeting with prospective nominees for his first-term Cabinet. Leonard explained how she pieced together the timeline from various email threads referencing Epstein’s whereabouts that day, then cross-referenced it with public photography from the building.

“Until we have proof of him walking in the building, the assumption is he was there on [November] 13th, in the morning, sometime between nine and 11, and he was there while Trump was picking all his Cabinet picks,” Leonard said, noting that Epstein likely would have used a private elevator from the parking garage that went directly to Trump’s office, rather than risk being seen in the public lobby.

Justice added that her own research corroborated the timeline.

“He was definitely in New York,” she said. “That’s for sure without a doubt that day, and he was around that area for sure without a doubt because there’s other emails from that day of him coordinating meetings and things.”

The fact that Epstein may have been in Trump’s company is newsworthy, with both Leonard and Justice pointing out that Trump has publicly said he kicked Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago after his 2007 plea deal for sex trafficking was publicly announced.

Was the Trump-Epstein Relationship Blackmail or Mutual Complicity?

Gibson then asked whether Epstein’s apparent close access to Trump’s inner circle was the result of blackmail or of a genuinely close friendship. Leonard said the evidence shows that both Trump and Epstein had plenty of mutual contacts both from a business standpoint and on a personal level. Leonard observed that people like current Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick have had deep ties to Epstein and ran in the same circles for years.

“I think it’s not so much that they were like best friends, but they were, like, complicit, and they knew they had to protect each other to protect themselves,” Leonard said, pointing to an investigation called Operation Chain Reaction that led to allegations of human trafficking tied to modeling agencies used by both Epstein and Trump’s businesses.

Justice noted how thoroughly Lutnick’s public denials about his relationship with Epstein — who was his longtime next-door neighbor in Manhattan — have been contradicted by documents released by the Justice Department.

“You have this, like, long email thread of all the planning for him to come to the island,” Justice said, referring to Lutnick’s 2012 visit to Epstein’s island despite years of denying it ever happened.

She also noted that Lutnick has been caught lying publicly about when he cut off ties with Epstein, at first saying it was after a 2005 visit to Epstein’s home. Documents eventually revealed that Lutnick not only visited Epstein’s Little Saint James Island, but bought a business with him shortly after that trip.

Will Todd Blanche Succeed in Burying the Epstein Files?

With roughly two million pages of Epstein-related documents still unreleased in direct defiance of the bipartisan Epstein Files Transparency Act, Gibson asked if there’s concern that Attorney General Todd Blanche may succeed in destroying or burying the files before a future Democratic administration can bring them to light.

“I mean, of course,” Leonard said. “I think that’s his pipe dream. He’d love this all to disappear.”

Justice connected Blanche directly to a blocked investigation tied to the Chain Reaction case, saying Blanche “specifically personally stopped that from happening.”

“We do not have that investigation that is related to Epstein because of Todd Blanche,” she said.

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Did Wall Street Banks Know What Epstein Was Doing?

Gibson brought up the recent report by the office of Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.), who appeared on Raw America earlier this month — about how major Wall Street banks looked the other way while Epstein was making millions of dollars in suspicious payments through various accounts for shell companies. He then asked whether Leonard and Justice had “smoking gun” evidence that big bank CEOs had direct knowledge of Epstein’s international human trafficking ring.

Justice called the U.S. Virgin Islands’ forensic investigation into J.P. Morgan Chase one of the most damning pieces of evidence in the entire Epstein case.

“Here’s in the first year, here’s the red flags, here’s all the red flags in the second year, and you kept this guy here for like 13-plus years,” Justice said, describing how 134 bank accounts were tied to Epstein with only first names and countries of origin attached. She added that this is typically a glaring trafficking indicator that bankers are trained to catch.

Leonard agreed, saying there is already “more than enough evidence” to support the criminal indictment of former Barclay’s CEO Jes Staley and “many many more” Wall Street executives who allegedly ignored Epstein’s crimes while making millions.

Could New York State Prosecutors Step In if Trump Pardons Everyone?

Gibson pointed out that Trump has a habit of pardoning those close to him, and that there’s a significant possibility that he would issue preemptive pardons to anyone remotely connected to Epstein before he leaves office in 2029. He then asked if there was a chance that prosecutors in New York could move forward with criminal investigations of their own, since a president can’t pardon state-level offenses.

Justice said there’s ample ground for a state investigation. However, one caveat is Epstein’s well-documented ties to the Southern District of New York, meaning there may not be the political will to do so given the possibility of what names may emerge as investigations unfold.

“All of this could be investigated in New York, but somebody has to want to do it, and I feel like that’s where the compromise is,” she said.

Leonard added that a probe by the New York Attorney General’s Office could delve into foreign intelligence angles. She said both Epstein and some of his closest associates appeared to be gathering compromising information on powerful men.

“I think a lot of those missing files that we don’t have would clarify a lot of that,” she said.

Was Epstein Working as a Foreign Intelligence Asset?

In one exchange, Leonard revealed that her own research — which she forwarded directly to the office of Congressman Jamie Raskin (D-Md.) — found evidence Epstein was helping Saudi officials design an oil-backed currency and associated “stablecoin” cryptocurrency to move the nation away from the U.S. dollar and Western banks.

“[Epstein] absolutely was working with the Saudis to help them get their own currency going,” Leonard said, adding that Epstein even filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to obtain his own FBI and/or CIA file. She noted that those agencies denied his request without confirming if such a file even existed.

Justice raised the largely unreported detail that entire batches of foreign-language documents in the Epstein files still have yet to be translated as of this writing.

“That’s going to be all your Russian information. That’s going to be all your Saudi information. That’s going to be all your Israeli information,” she said. “So that is also being hidden in the Epstein files.”

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Could Todd Blanche’s DOJ Actually Be Held in Contempt?

Gibson asked about the status of journalist Katie Phang’s ongoing lawsuit against the Justice Department, in which she claims that Blanche and DOJ leaders are intentionally violating the Epstein Files Transparency Act.

He also noted that U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan, a Clinton appointee, even threatened to hold the DOJ in contempt for withholding documents. This includes 37 missing pages of notes from the Jane Doe Four case, which pertains to the woman who accused Donald Trump of assaulting her when she was just a teen.

Justice walked through the latest hearing and revealed that the missing notes in question actually surfaced online shortly after the contempt threat, thanks to a conservative journalist.

“So now it becomes this narrative of how did we get access to them because they were released through a conservative journalist who posted them quietly online in a public forum,” Justice said, pointing out the DOJ must produce its official versions by this Thursday, August 27.

What Really Happened the Night Epstein Died?

Gibson remarked that August 10 marked the seven-year anniversary of Epstein’s death, and asked Leonard and Justice to help make sense of conflicting accounts, including a claim from Epstein’s brother, Mark, that his death was a homicide and not a suicide.

Justice acknowledged that there are two popular theories that have circulated to contradict the federal government’s claim of a suicide, in that Epstein was believed to have either been murdered or removed. However, she said the timing of Epstein revising his trust documents just before his death suggests the notorious sex trafficker likely died by suicide.

Leonard reminded viewers of the multiple failures at the Manhattan Detention Complex (MDC) that night. Nine of eleven security cameras malfunctioned during. scheduled “update,” Epstein had no assigned cellmate, and was even taken off suicide watch just one day before his death.

“It was allowed to happen in a way that for other criminals who are in there, especially high-profile ones, would have had a lot more oversight,” Leonard said.

DOJ Told New Mexico to Stop Digging Into Epstein’s Human Trafficking

Gibson asked the two for updates about New Mexico’s lawsuit against the DOJ and Attorney General Blanche over documents pertaining to Epstein’s Zorro Ranch property that the state says the Justice Department is intentionally withholding. Multiple Epstein survivors have alleged that serious abuse occurred at the ranch, and there’s also been speculation that Epstein may have buried the remains of some girls at the sprawling New Mexico property.

Leonard said the property remains “incredibly under-investigated” despite years of testimony from survivors, and said there have been multiple suspicious changes to the property’s ownership records.

“All they’re asking is to just be able to investigate it. It’s been what, seven years since [Epstein] died?” Leonard said.

At one point, Justice revealed she had discovered an email from federal investigators explicitly telling New Mexico prosecutors to de-prioritize human trafficking-related inquiries tied to Jeffrey Epstein and Zorro Ranch.

“They were reaching out to the officials in New Mexico and asking them very specifically to stop investigations as far as trafficking is concerned,” Justice said.

What Motivates Leonard and Justice to Stay on the Epstein Story

Gibson closed by asking both Leonard and Justice what motivated them to pour so many hours into this story. Leonard, a mother of four, told the Associated Press in February she wants to contribute to a world where human trafficking survivors are believed and protected, and where the men who abused them are held accountable.

“Nobody was standing up for them when they were 13 and 14 and 15 years old,” Leonard said. “All that I can do... is creat[e] a world where this doesn’t happen again, and that’s really, really important to me.”

Justice, who herself is a mother of three girls, recalled how she partnered with Leonard’s Substack after multiple late-night message exchanges comparing their findings.

“I call myself an average informed citizen,” Justice said. “It’s not your job to know everything, but it’s important that we make sure that we’re asking questions and paying attention.”

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Gibson and Biden covered various topics including:

• The double standard between Republican attacks on the “Biden crime family” and the Trump family’s shady business dealings during his first and second terms

• Whether Democrats should pursue a third Trump impeachment or a more deliberate strategy of hearings and subpoenas if they retake Congress in the fall

• Whether there should be a “Nuremberg 2.0” reckoning and whether America needs a formal accountability process to move past the Trump administration

• Who could lead the Democratic Party in 2028, including Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and other figures

• His remarks calling Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “evil incarnate” and describing Gaza as a genocide, and his disagreement with his father

• His journey through addiction recovery and his father’s support through it all

Conversations like this one, with one of the biggest names in the news right now, are only possible with the support of our paying subscribers. Raw America isn’t beholden to a billionaire owner or a corporate parent, and answer only to you, the reader. We’re only able to speak at length with guests like Hunter Biden thanks to our paying subscribers who make it possible. Chip in and help keep independent journalism like this going. You can do it right now for just 22 cents a day.

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Hunter Biden Calls Out Republicans Over Corruption Double Standard

Gibson opened the conversation first by pointing to economist Dean Baker’s recent comparison of the Biden and Trump families’ finances during each administration. Baker noted that while Hunter Biden had a board seat on a Ukrainian energy company and sold paints, Trump’s family was raking in $1.4 billion in profits from cryptocurrency-related ventures, while the president himself boasted about taking $13 billion in oil money from Venezuela and received a $400 million jet as a gift from Qatar’s royal family.

Biden pushed back hard on Republicans’ allegations against him, noting that buyers of his paintings were forced to testify under oath about the actual prices they paid, while the president’s son went out of his way to pursue an income in ways that couldn’t possibly be perceived as political. He added that his income during his father’s presidency averaged around $215,000 to $220,000 a year, and that the scale of scrutiny he faced looks absurd next to what’s happening now.

Hunter Biden pointed to Donald Trump Jr.’s 1789 Capital fund and its portfolio companies’ billions of dollars in Pentagon contracts. He also drew attention to Jared Kushner’s exorbitant compensation from a Saudi-backed investment fund.

“It’s such a target-rich environment that I don’t know if I could add anything more than what is also obviously directly in front of their eyes,” Biden said.

‘Yes, And’: Hunter Biden Calls for Both Impeachment Proceedings and Hearings

Gibson noted that there’s a debate right now among Democrats about whether to pursue an unprecedented third impeachment of Trump, or whether to pursue a more focused strategy of subpoenas and congressional hearings.

Biden replied with “yes, and,” indicating he prefers an all-of-the-above approach. Former President Joe Biden’s second son noted that he’s skeptical anyone in the Trump administration will play by the old rules at all, suggesting Democrats shouldn’t feel compelled to hold themselves to what he called “Marquess of Queensberry” rules.

“Donald Trump is the singular existential threat, because he’s broken it all,” Biden said, adding that the current president was a “one-man crime wave.”

He described how he and his wife have talked about the struggle Democrats have on whether to abandon procedural restraint entirely to fully pursue accountability or bind themselves to rules Republicans have long since abandoned. In one example, he noted that Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick’s sons paid pennies on the dollar to buy companies’ tariff refunds in the event tariffs were overturned and rebates were issued, leading them to eventually make billions in profit once those rebates were finally paid out.

‘There has to be a reckoning’: Biden Supports Calls for ‘Nuremberg 2.0’

Gibson then asked Biden how would prefer to see Democrats move beyond the Trump administration should they regain control of the executive branch in 2028. He noted that some prospective presidential candidates have called for Americans to unite and move on, while others have stressed the need for public accountability measures, citing Sen. Ron Wyden’s (D-Ore.) call for a “Nuremberg 2.0” process.

Biden agreed with the latter option, saying that whether it’s framed as “Nuremberg 2.0” or another truth and reconciliation process similar to post-apartheid South Africa is necessary, calling attention to the Trump administration’s direct defiance of federal court orders pertaining to the Epstein files and oversight requests related to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

“We’ve lost the constitutional republic as we’ve known it already,” Biden said, adding that Trump’s comments about a third term shouldn’t be dismissed as jokes.

“If [Trump] leaves and he does not have power, there will be a reckoning. And he fully 100 percent knows that,” Biden added.

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Biden Bullish on AOC and the Democratic Party’s Next Generation of Leaders

Gibson noted that Biden previously referred to Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) as “the future of the Democratic Party.” He then asked whether Biden believes the country is ready to elect a female president, given that highly qualified female presidential candidates like former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and former Vice President Kamala Harris each lost to “an adjudicated rapist and a convicted felon.”

Biden responded by saying that no one thought in 2008 that America would elect a Black U.S. senator from Illinois who was born in Hawaii as president, but that those ceilings were meant to be shattered. Hunter Biden also said he rarely disagrees with Ocasio-Cortez, and heaped praise on her for being able build relationships across the aisle. He also lauded Michigan U.S. Senate candidate Dr. Abdul El-Sayed and Texas state representative James Talarico, and called on Democrats to stop fussing over who belongs in its “big tent.”

“People just want you to be authentic, like truly authentic,” Biden said. “You can’t fake authenticity.”

Biden Calls Netanyahu ‘Evil Incarnate’ and Gaza a ‘Genocide’ — While Defending His Father’s Record

Gibson pointed out that when Hunter Biden told Tucker Carlson that he viewed Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as “evil incarnate” and described Israel’s war in Gaza as a “genocide,” those positions were contradictory to the policies his father’s administration embraced. He then asked Hunter if he ever confronted his father over his Israel policy.

Biden acknowledged that Israel was carrying out the “wholesale murder of children,” he noted that his father’s approach was centered on securing the release of hostages taken during Hamas’ October 7, 2023 attack on Israel, in which 1,400 people were killed in one day. He also noted that President Biden privately clashed with Netanyahu, called him a “crazy motherf—ker” to his face, and withheld 2,000-pound bombs and only agreed to supply defensive weapons like Patriot missiles.

Hunter Biden then turned the question back on his father’s critics, asking where Palestinian solidarity protests are now given how much worse the Trump administration is on Gaza. He also accused Gulf Arab states were silent even as Palestinian civilians were being slaughtered, and emphasized that the whole conflict is intensely complicated. However, he insisted that the most obvious villain was Israel’s far-right regime.

“If you can’t see that Bibi Netanyahu is evil incarnate, then I don’t know what you’re looking at,” Biden said. “It is the wholesale murder of children. Of children!”

Biden Credits His Support Network with His Recovery from Addiction

To close the conversation, Gibson asked Hunter Biden about the viral 2018 voicemail Joe Biden left his son urging him to get help, and what he would say to people currently struggling with addiction battles of their own.

Biden said that voicemail was one of dozens or even hundreds his father left him while he was in the throes of addiction, and credited his recovery to his family — including his father, aunts, uncles, mother, and daughters — who he says never gave up on him. He also pushed back on the oft-repeated advice to first let addicts “hit bottom” before offering to help, saying that in his experience, that’s usually fatal.

“The one advantage that I had is that my family never closed the door on me,” Biden said. “They kept shining the light down the well I had fallen into.”

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Read the full transcript of Gibson and Biden’s conversation below:

CARL GIBSON: Well, Hunter, let’s get right into it. I know one thing I’d love to get your perspective on is the fact that the very same Republicans who spent the last four years accusing you and the “Biden Crime Family” of corruption are suddenly a lot more silent when it comes to this current president and his family making billions off of the presidency. Economist Dean Baker, he wrote a great piece this week, which I’ll link to in the write-up of this conversation. But he broke down the differences between your family and the Trump family, and the contrast is pretty astounding. So, real quick, just to recap: so you know, you sold a painting, you got a board position on a Ukrainian energy company. Trump has bragged about stealing $13 billion worth of oil money from Venezuela, the Trump family has made $1.4 billion from cryptocurrency since just last January. Of course, he was gifted a $400 million jet from the Qatari royal family, which then got almost a billion dollars in upgrades, courtesy of we the taxpayers. And now he’s doing what some would say is insider trading by selling early access to his truth social posts. So, Hunter, I guess my question is: What would you like to see from Democrats when it comes to tackling Trump’s corruption should they win back control of Congress in the fall?

HUNTER BIDEN: It’s it’s such a target-rich environment that I don’t know if I could add anything more than what is also obviously directly in front of their eyes. Here’s the thing, okay? What I say is that, regardless if you believed all of the lies that they told about me and my family — and they’re all lies, there’s not a single piece of evidence that I ever involved my dad in any of my business — 90 percent of the things that they talk about occurred during a period of time when my dad was neither vice president nor president. I sold paintings. I did because I’m a painter, and that’s what I chose to do. I chose to do something while my dad was president that was literally the furthest thing that I could think of that was away from politics, away from any idea that there could be any influence or anything, and they created this lie that I was selling paintings for $500,000 to, you know, shadowy people. Every single person who bought a painting from me was named, and had to go and testify before Congress before an impeachment investigation, under oath, and talk about the fact that they bought a painting from me for $35,000 or whatever it may be.

My income was during the period of time when my dad was president was, basically averaged over the four years, about $215,000 to $220,000 a year. That’s it. I didn’t do any other business while my dad was president. Anything. But [if you] believe everything that that they spun about the “Biden crime family,” it doesn’t even remotely compare. It almost pains me to, like the idea that they’re mentioning that supposed corruption in the same breath as we’re watching the country get completely and utterly fleeced. And just the few things that you named, I mean, that’s not even the tip of the iceberg.

Think about this: Don Jr. and Eric Trump, or Don Jr. in particular, started a venture capital fund called I think 1789 Capital a few days before their dad gets inaugurated. That fund — I believe this is the numbers, I’m not positive — but that fund, the underlying companies have received over $3.4 billion in [Department of Defense] contracts to companies, many of them that never existed before they became companies under the umbrella of 1789 Capital, which means Don Jr. got the largest single loan ever granted by the Department of Defense. $620 million pushed through. We’ve seen the communications by Peter Navarro inside the White House for a rare earth minerals company. They used to say like, what did Hunter Biden know about natural gas? What the hell does Don Beavis Jr. Trump know about rare earth minerals? They got a $1.2 billion deal in Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan. I mean, and it goes on and on. And forget about Jared Kushner, you know, our unelected, non-Senate confirmed spokesperson and policymaker in the Middle East. Well, he’s literally getting paid by the Saudis of at least $6.2 billion, and over $100 million a year, just annually, and it’s all out in the open. They don’t care anymore.

And so, what I say to the members of. Congress that are about to come into, I hope, a position of oversight and chairmanships, at least in the House of Representatives and hopefully in the Senate, is do not let anything go. Don’t let any of this go. They’re not going to participate. It’s not going to be as as straightforward as a lot of people think, because you see what Todd Blanche just did. Todd Blanche says that he will adhere to the Constitution. He gets his nomination goes through. He gets Senate-confirmed, and within 24 hours, he writes a memo to the White House that says executive privilege applies not only to discussions with senior White House staff — which, for the last 250 years, that’s what executive privilege meant — it now applies to anyone basically that the president designates as an outside senior advisor.

So every single person that his family is doing business right with right now, whether it’s Saudis or whether it’s in Indonesia or whether it is in Azerbaijan, or Albania, or in Turkey — by the way, all places that they’re doing business with right now, all places that they’re doing business with — and many more, Qatar, Oman, and keep going down the line, is that they now are senior advisors and will not have to, according to Todd Blanche, will not have to comply with congressional subpoenas in oversight or any investigate investigatory body.

CG: You know, whether Democrats sweep back into Congress or not, some people have called for another impeachment trial. Of course, the list of impeachable offenses is a mile long. Like I think we could agree any other president who did half of what this administration does would be facing impeachment, and rightly so. Now, Jamie Raskin, the who would be the chairman of the Judiciary Committee if Democrats win back the majority, has talked about instead pursuing a strategy of hearings and subpoenas and dragging people before Congress rather than another impeachment trial, which, you know, 67 votes in the Senate, not likely. Do you have any thoughts on like that strategy? Is it like yes, and? Is it one or the other? Like, what do you think about that?

HB: Yes, and, I don’t, look, I think that this idea that we’re going to play by any set of rules that, and, I have this discussion with my wife all the time. She says, “just lock them up.” You know what I mean? And I say, “well, what about the Constitution?” And she says, “they don’t follow the Constitution.” They don’t follow the rules. They run roughshod over everything. And by the time people wake up to the idea that all the rules have changed, they get away scot-free and everything. And by the way, that’s January 6. That’s everything that happened before January 6. I mean, people’s memories are so short. The level of corruption that occurred in the first Trump administration was beyond what every single other president combined had ever done, and that’s in the first administration. We forget how many cronies of theirs took advantage of COVID and were selling masks and getting contracts with the government and the DoD and the DHS and all of that.

And by the way, we’re talking about the Trump family alone. Think about what Howard Lutnick is doing right now. Think about the one instance of this. Okay, the Secretary of Commerce decides that he’s going to go out and he’s going to push for these tariffs, and his sons, at the same time, are going to go and they’re going to buy up the rights that companies potentially have if the tariff gets overturned by the [Supreme Court]. So pennies on the dollar, they go to these major corporations and they say, “if the tariff gets overturned and you’re due a refund, we’ll buy that from you now for 10 cents on the dollar.” So when it got overturned, the tariffs — that he said were completely constitutional — Howard Lutnick and his sons just made billions, billions of dollars when they knew it was unconstitutional. They knew that it was going to get overturned. And so my point is, is that I just, I don’t fully know the answer, and I don’t pretend to know the answer. I don’t know. What’s your opinion? What’s the opinion of people that are listening to this right now? It’s like, you know, sorry, I talk too much, but I’ve had four cups, I’m on my fourth cup of coffee.

CG: It’s all good.

HB: Exactly! So do you remember, there’s a famous play, and then also a movie called “A Man for All Seasons,” and here’s a scene in the play where the son goes to Thomas More, and the king is about to basically eventually execute Thomas More, and his son says, “You have to go after the king.” And he said, “by what law?” And he says, “what does it matter with the law?” And Thomas More says to his son-in-law, Roper, he says — and it’s an overused thing — but he says, “when you chase the devil into the forest and you cut down every tree to get to him, what tree do you hide behind when he turns on you?” And that I think is the question of our time. What is it that we can do to stop the lawlessness of this president within the bounds of the of the Marquess of Queensberry rules of Congress, of oversight of the Constitution as it exists right now? And I don’t know the answer to that, and that’s why I say that Donald Trump is the singular existential threat because he’s broken it all. What does he do? He’s literally a crime boss. We are going through a one-man crime wave globally right now. Okay? He’s making money off the Iran War. He’s making money off of Gaza. He’s making money off of the death and destruction of thousands of people, and that’s not even the tip of the iceberg. So what do we do? He’s broken it. He’s broken the whole system. The question is, how do we rebuild it in a way that it never it never happens again?

CG: Well, aside from the corruption issue, which obviously we could talk about all day, but you look at ICE. I know they just spent $20 million to equip agents in the field with electric shock gloves. Of course, you know the shootings of Alex Pretti and Renee Good, no accountability has happened for them. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, who we had here on Raw America last week, he’s used the phrase “Nuremberg 2.0,” which calls up images from the post-World War II trials of Nazi officials. Do you think we need something like that to heal as a country before we can move forward? I know a lot of people who are going to run for president in 2028 will say, you know, let’s let’s not rehash the past, let’s move forward, let’s unite. And some people would say we have to have trials, we have to have accountability. If we’re going to have the rule of law in this country, we have to enforce those laws and show that no one is above the law. Like, what direction would you be leaning in?

HB: 100 percent, I believe that whether you call it Nuremberg 2.0, whether you call it Truth and Reconciliation, whatever it is, you don’t have to be punitive to the degree that there’s not a chance for healing, but they they have to be held accountable. And I know that there are a lot of people out there say, “Oh, well, you got a pardon in this, that, and the other thing.” Well, I’m here to say this. They’ve broken the entire system. They have broken it to a degree that there has to be a way in which we are all at least able to come to a common set of facts and truth about what just occurred. And I’m just hoping that we get there. I’m hoping, I want people to understand that this battle — and we should call it a battle — the battle that is occurring right now isn’t to sustain or save our democracy. We’ve lost the the constitutional republic as we’ve known it already. It’s that it’s happened. It’s not a matter of whether we will lose it. I truly believe that.

Think about it. What are the ultimate guardrails? Is it that he ignores court orders? Look what he’s doing as it relates to the Justice Department and the Epstein files right now. They are literally in Judge [Emmet] Sullivan’s court completely ignoring all a congressionally mandated oversight and the release of the files, and they’re just purely ignoring it. They’re doing that in I don’t know how many cases as it relates to the DHS, as it relates to ICE, they’re doing it. They’re doing it in terms of any oversight, as it relates to what [former DHS Secretary] Kristi Noem did… the guy that dressed up in the Nazi uniform—

CG: —Gregory Bovino.

HB: They are completely ignoring the rule of law, and when you have a president of the United States that continues to go out and “joke” about running for a third term and calls himself a king, I would suggest to people that it is not a joke. He can’t leave. If he leaves and he does not have power, there will be a reckoning, and he fully 100 percent knows that. And I’m not here to say that I have the answer to it, but I think that Senator Wyden is 100 percent right, and whether you call it Nuremberg 2.0 or, you know, or Trump 1.0. I don’t know, but but there has to be a reckoning.

CG: We’re here with Hunter Biden. Hunter is joining us. We’re talking about everything from Trump’s corruption to the midterms and everything else in between. If you’re just joining us, I’m Carl Gibson, managing editor of Raw America. If you like independent media that doesn’t take a dime from billionaires and doesn’t have a corporate owner deciding what you get to know. Please support, subscribe to Raw America. We greatly appreciate it. You can also follow and subscribe to Hunter Biden on his Substack as well.

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Hunter, I want to get into now as we’re talking about 2028. Who could be the [Democratic] Party’s standard bearer in the next presidential election? I noticed in your most recent interview you referred to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as “the future of the Democratic Party,” and that she isn’t afraid to acknowledge that the system is broken and that we need radical change. She hasn’t ruled out a run for the White House in 2028, but, you know, a lot of people would say that America is too sexist to vote for a woman, seeing as highly qualified candidates like former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, former Vice President Kamala Harris, lost to an adjudicated rapist and convicted felon. What would you say to those people who are hesitant about running a woman in 2028?

HB: I would say that I remember a time when America wasn’t ready for somebody named Barack Obama, a Black United States senator from the state of Illinois who was born in Hawaii. I mean, I think that those rules are meant to be broken, and they better be meant to be broken because it’s time that we have a woman as president of the United States. I think that just for the pure reason that I think that there is so much leadership that has been provided out there by women — and mainly, in my opinion, in the Democratic Party — women of color. And so, look, I don’t have any time for anybody that tells you that we have to figure out right now who’s going to be the leader. You know, that’s what a primary process is for. I always say to people, you know, Will Rogers’ words, “I’m I’m not a member of any organized party. I’m a Democrat.” It’s true, and it’s been true for a very long time.

It’s because we are the Big Tent Party. We do welcome a plethora of voices, and then we go and we form circular firing squads, and and we decide that these talking head arbiters that have never really done much, but spend a lot of time talking on cable news shows, tell us that this person should be in and that person should be out, and the label of socialist is going to be the thing that kills us, and we’re going to lose with rural voters. And you know what? I think that we’re going to we will land on our leadership by the process that we’ve always gone through as a party, by a competitive race, by people expressing their vision of what this country should look like. I listen to AOC a lot, and I very, very, vary rarely disagree with her, and I think that she is an incredible communicator, and I think that she also has proven that she is able to talk to people outside of her direct constituency or her perceived constituency. Look at the way that she has relationships across the aisle, even in this environment, and is able to sit down and talk with other people. And so, I mean, I just really love her.

That being said, I also love Gretchen Whitmer. I and I know that a lot of people in the Democratic Party right now are mad because she didn’t do this, or did this, or did that. But you know, it’s the same way, I say we’re crazy if we all don’t just get behind Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, you know, 100 percent. We have a a Michigan-born Rhodes scholar who is this incredible athlete. On top of that, who is also a a board-certified doctor, who’s also an epidemiologist, who also talks to people the the way that they talk to each other. The same way that I think that [Texas state representative] James Talarico is an incredible candidate.

I think that we have this incredible cast of leaders that are out there, that are young, that are, you know, that have an enormous amount of energy, and we just all need to get behind them rather than sitting around talking about, you know, whether Hasan Piker should be a part of the party. Like, I look at somebody like Hasan, and I realize that he’s grown up on these platforms, and he’s created an incredible constituency that he has, and he’s said really stupid things in the past that he’s taken back, and, I don’t know about you, but there’s a whole generation from 18 to 35 years old that understands politics in a very, very different way than anybody like James Carville, the Pod Save America guys, understand politics. And they’ll say, “Oh, Hunter doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about.”

But you know, I’ve been out there, I’ve been talking to people, I’ve been on these shows, and one of the reasons I so enjoy being on these shows is because I’ve figured out that, you know what? People just want you to be authentic, like truly authentic. You can’t fake authenticity, and more than anything, they can sniff out a bullshitter from a mile away. Ane so anybody that’s going out there, and figuring out that with their political analysts, like you know their eight-point plan … you know, doesn’t interest me. And I and that’s why I like AOC. It’s a long answer about AOC. Sorry.

CG: Well, you talk going on all these different shows, and you know, as I was is watching different appearances that you’ve done, you went on Tucker Carlson’s podcast earlier this month, and I thought it was really interesting. You referred to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as “evil incarnate.” You called what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza as a “genocide.” I know your dad caught a lot of heat for his support of Netanyahu in spite of the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza, which is ongoing. Did you ever talk to him to try to get him to see the other side of that issue? And I’m just curious, like your journey on that issue, like when you started really seeing what was happening and speaking out about it.

HB: Look, I’m not here to defend my dad’s position on anything. I’m here to defend my dad as a dad and as a person. And I think that obviously there were some mistakes made. But one of the things I do know is that what my dad was doing with Netanyahu was not embracing him during that period of time. There was one instance after October 7, where a horrific massacre occurred… let’s all realize how complicated it is, and not very complicated in that moment. Over 1400 Israelis, Israeli Jews were murdered, and I don’t remember the exact number, but well over 100 that were taken as hostages. Okay? My dad’s first principal goal was to get the hostages released, and that’s what he began to do. And he had to work directly with the Israelis to do that.

And, by the way, I’m of the belief that that Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israelis and the Mossad knew that an attack was coming. I don’t see any other way that it could possibly have happened that the response time could have taken 10 hours, and so I think that. I believe in that conspiracy, by the way. But regardless, a response was due, and then from that point on, I know that my dad — and he gets to write about this in his book — I mean, I don’t know how many times he kicked Benjamin Netanyahu out of his office and called him, you know, a crazy motherfucker, literally to his face. I mean, all they did during that time, he took away the 2000-pound bombs… The vast majority of the weaponry that they did provide at that time was the defensive weaponry as it relates to the Patriot missile system.

People can all agree with that, but let me ask this question: for all the people that were out there protesting my dad, that were in front of the White House on a daily basis, and I understand their passion and the reason why. Where are they now? Where are they now? Is there a permanent Palestinian protest outside of the White House right now? Because Donald Trump has literally posted images that he’s going to turn Gaza into a Trump-themed golf course. Literally! They are literally advocating the removal of the remaining million-plus Palestinians from Gaza, to where nobody knows, so that they can turn it into a resort designed by Jared Kushner, and that isn’t even a joke. That’s literally what they’re saying. So where are they now?

And here’s another question that I have for all of these people that out there that are saying that this is, you know, such a cut-and-dry thing. Where are the Saudis on this? Where are the [United Arab Emirates]? They’ve never lifted a finger to be able to do anything for the Palestinians. Not a finger from any single other place. The only place that ever did anything was Lebanon, and Lebanon was ended up becoming destroyed by it. And so, the history of this is far more complicated then they’re right or wrong. But I know this in this moment, if you can’t see that Bibi Netanyahu is evil incarnate, then I don’t know what you’re looking at, because what he is doing, the way in which he has gone about organizing his government, the IDF, and the Israeli people, to, I don’t know what other word to use than genocide. I don’t know what other word. If somebody can come up with a better word that that that that appeases their sense of justice, then please let me know what it is. But whatever it is, it is the wholesale murder of children. Of children! And so, I don’t know the solution to this, and it is one of the most intractable and painful things to watch. But that’s why I like going on and talking to people that I don’t agree with.

CG: Well, and I’d love to talk to you more about that. We’re a little short on time. I did want to ask, Hunter, just as we’re closing out here, I wanted to talk about your journey as a recovering addict. I remember the audio of the voicemail that your dad left you back in 2018. I’ll link to this in the write-up as well. He said, “It’s Dad, I called to tell you I love you. I love you more than the whole world, pal. You got to get some help. I don’t know what to do.” And I know you started your recovery journey in 2019. I’m curious to know if that voicemail like helped start you on that path, and also what you would say to people watching right now who may be in the middle of their own struggles with addiction, whether it be alcohol or drugs or anything else.

HB: Yeah, you know the thing is, that was just one of probably, I don’t know, tens, if not dozens or hundreds of voicemails during that period of time that my dad left me on my phone. And the thing that I talk about as it relates to my recovery, I don’t have a prescription for anybody else — and I’m here to tell you, if anyone tells you that they do have, like, you go from A to Z, they’re not telling you the truth — all I can say is what helped me, and one of the things that I had an incredible advantage over anybody, and I was incredibly privileged, is this: I had a family that never let me go. Not just my dad, but it also included my aunts and uncles, and my mom, and included my daughters more than anybody else. My three adult daughters that never let me go.

And one of the things that people say often in recovery is, when you get these people, the advisors, and it’s well meaning, and I understand it because there’s a lot of pain, that addiction is a family disease. It is not just the disease of the individual. It affects it. There’s a blast radius around it, and one of the things they say is, you just got to let them hit bottom. Well, from my experience, the people that have hit bottom are dead. And the one advantage that I had is that my family never closed the door on me. Not only did they not close the door on me, but they kept shining the light down the well I had fallen into, and in order to get better, you have to have some sense of connection… These windows in addiction that I’ve experienced, at least, in which you get this kind of clarity of what you’re doing to yourself, and and in that window, if there’s no hand reaching out to you, it’s so much harder. And that’s why I always say, like, my God… comparatively to so many people that I know have gotten clean and sober on their own, without the family that I had, without the love that I had — and that those people I think are the bravest, most amazing people in in the world — and but for me that voicemail is indicative, but it does not paint the whole picture. Just how much my father’s always been there for me.

CG: We’ve been here talking to Hunter Biden. Hunter Biden is joining us here on Raw America. We’ve been talking about politics, world affairs, everything else here on Raw America. If you’re just joining us, I’m Carl Gibson, managing editor of Raw America. We are fully reader supported. We are editorially independent. We are not for sale. If you like supporting independent journalism that doesn’t take orders from billionaires or corporations, please subscribe and follow us. We greatly appreciate it. Hunter, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us, and I hope this isn’t the last time that we talk to you.

HB: No, thanks, and I really, really, really appreciate it. And I love this Substack. Go to my Substack too, guys. You know? No billionaires for me either.

CG: Yeah, Hunter Biden is on Substack. Follow and subscribe to him as well. Everyone.

HB: By the way, I listen to you guys all the time, and just keep doing what you’re doing. It’s truly amazing, and you know, it’s not like I agree 100 percent of the time, but I appreciate it 100 percent of the time. So I really mean it. Thank you, and I’m honored that you would have me on.

CG: That means a lot, Hunter. I appreciate it.

HB: Thank you. Thanks, man.

• How the NDTC trains Democratic candidates in the how-tos of campaigning

• How to build the Democratic bench ahead of 2028 in local and national races

• The NDTC’s new guide on volunteering for 2026 campaigns

• How to persuading skeptical or undecided voters at their doorstep

• How Democrats can unite after bitter primary fights

• The widening midterm enthusiasm gap between Democrats and Republicans

• How to counter the Trump administration’s election interference tactics

• What first-time candidates need to start doing now to run in 2028

• Why working-class Democratic candidates don’t need to fear fundraising

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What the NDTC Actually Does

As Dietrich explained, the NDTC isn’t an official arm of the Democratic Party, but rather a separate organization that exists to lower the barrier for would-be candidates to get the knowledge they need to mount their own campaigns for office “no matter how small the race or how red the district.”

Dietrich’s organization has trained more than 130,000 Democrats over the past decade, with 1,500 candidates already winning their primaries in the 2026 cycle alone. Dietrich emphasized that his group doesn’t make endorsements, and is committed to neutrality in contested primaries.

“We do not pick winners and losers. If you are willing to stand up and work in your community, you are willing to fight MAGA Republicans... we offer the free resources, tools, and trainings for you to be successful,” he said.

Building the Democratic Bench for 2028 Up and Down the Ticket

With Democrats aiming to flip dozens of Republican seats in a potential blue wave in November, Gibson asked Dietrich what the NDTC is doing to deepen the party’s bench ahead of the 2028 elections, both in Congress and in down-ballot races at the municipal and state levels.

Dietrich said the NDTC’s approach starts with helping people figure out whether running is even right for them in the first place, then pairing candidates with groups and resources that can help them quickly gain ballot access and then start engaging with voters in their own communities.

The NDTC founder and CEO pointed to incumbent Democratic lawmakers, including Congresswoman Lauren Underwood (D-Ill.), as examples of people who benefited from the NDTC’s resources and training. Dietrich also stressed that his group works alongside and not in competition with other Democratic organizations like Run for Something,EMILY’s List, Voto Latino and others.

“We are very much a collaborative, not competitive organization,” Dietrich said.

The NDTC’s New How-To Guide for 2026 Campaign Volunteers

Gibson asked Dietrich to walk through the NDTC’s newly released guide on how everyday Democrats can support local campaigns this fall in a volunteer capacity. Dietrich said volunteering is just as easy to learn as it is an essential resource for candidates aiming to reach as many voters as possible ahead of the general election.

Dietrich recalled his own mother’s nervousness the first time she called a Republican U.S. senator’s office to register her disapproval with the senator’s position on an issue. He noted the NDTC’s guide is specifically designed to knock down the hesitation many people may feel when calling their member of Congress or trying to persuade a voter.

“You want to know the best practices, how to knock a door, we got it. You want to know how to do a text bank or a phone bank? We got it,” Dietrich said.

Dietrich also reminded viewers that the high-profile, marquee House and Senate races are far from the only campaigns that need volunteers. This includes candidates running for local school boards, city councils, mayoral offices, county commissions and other elections up and down the ticket.

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The Art of Persuading a Gettable Voter

The conversation then turned to various tactics volunteers can tap into in order to persuade voters either while canvassing door-to-door or phonebanking. Gibson asked: if a voter appears unmoved, is it better to double down on persuasion or cut your losses and move on?

Dietrich said the answer ultimately depends on whether the campaign has identified the voter as persuadable in the first place, though he stressed the underlying approach is always the same: listen first, and lead with shared values rather than facts and statistics.

“Let’s be 100 percent clear: facts, figures, logic, and common sense are not the way to persuade swing voters,” Dietrich said. “Start connecting on a personal level. Humans are storytellers.”

The NDTC founder described using his own 13 year-old daughter as his “why” when talking to voters, reminding himself that the whole reason he engages in politics is so that she grows up in a country with a more responsive government. He encouraged campaign volunteers to really lean into asking open-ended questions to find out what’s keeping voters up at night, before pivoting to selling their candidate as the solution.

Why ‘No’ Is Still a Good Answer

As the conversation delved deeper into the art of persuasion, Gibson asked how volunteers should actually close the conversation with a voter and ask for a commitment, after presumably building rapport over shared values.

Dietrich reminded viewers that the ultimate goal when volunteering isn’t to get every person to commit to voting for the chosen candidate, but ultimately to deepen the campaign’s knowledge of the electorate.

He argued that while all volunteers would hope for every voter to agree to vote for their chosen candidate, display a yard sign, commit to volunteering and donating to the campaign itself, a firm “no” can also be a very useful data point.

“No is a good answer, which sounds counterproductive, but there’s a reason for it,” Dietrich said, explaining that it helps campaigns avoid wasting limited resources on unpersuadable voters.

How Democrats Can Re-Unite After Hard-Fought Primary Races

Gibson observed that the 2026 cycle has been rife with contested primaries in states like Michigan and Wisconsin. He observed that while Rep. Haley Stevens (D-Mich.) agreed to stump with Dr. Abdul El-Sayed through November, unity is still an open question in Wisconsin’s Democratic gubernatorial primary between Democratic socialist Francesca Hong and moderate David Crowley. Gibson then asked the NDTC founder what advice he’d give to Democratic factions looking to reunite after expensive and personal primary fights.

Dietrich replied by first pushed back on the idea that the party is as divided as it’s often portrayed in the media, then reiterating that Democrats should learn from the example of total unity seen in Michigan.

“The algorithms and the right and others have a vested interest in us believing that the split in the party is so much more divisive than it is. We need to remember we agree on 90 to 95 percent of everything,” Dietrich said.

Dietrich also credited Maryland Gov. Wes Moore with a framing he found useful — that Democrats have typically been been seen as “the party of no and later” when they need to be the party of “yes and now.”

“MAGA is the problem, not fellow Democrats,” he added.

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Preparing for Election Interference in 2026

The conversation then took on a more sobering tone, with Gibson asking what the NDTC is doing to prepare Democrats for the possibility of the Trump administration’s Department of Justice engaging in voter suppression efforts ahead of the midterms — particularly now that Todd Blanche, who is Trump’s former personal lawyer, has now been confirmed as attorney general.

Dietrich said any response will begin with mass mobilizations of campaign volunteers.

“Everyone watching, listening right now, we need you,” Dietrich said, urging viewers to enlist family and friends as volunteers. “I don’t care where you live, we need you.”

The NDTC founder reiterated that sunlight is still the best disinfectant when it comes to attempts to undermine the midterms.

“They can only cheat if we allow it to happen, and if we are loud and stand our ground,” he said.

Dietrich’s Advice for Potential 2028 Candidates: Start Building Relationships Now

Gibson noted that he has a friend in Kentucky considering a campaign for Congress in 2028, and asked Dietrich what advice he would give someone who has a plan to run but doesn’t know where to begin.

Dietrich said anyone who was considering declaring a run for office should take advantage of the current moment to start building relationships without having to ask for anything in return. He added this is the ideal time to build what campaign strategists call a “power map” of local influencers who candidates can later call on to help them down the road.

According to Dietrich, the most successful campaigns already have a built-in network of contacts ready to help them enlist volunteers, knock doors, phonebank and raise money by the time they declare their candidacy, and that these networks take time to develop.

How to Fundraise Without Having Rich Friends

Finally, Gibson asked about one of the biggest barriers for working-class would-be candidates: how does a candidate who lacks moneyed connections raise enough funds to win, especially when running against candidates with an army of resources?

Dietrich, a who is a former finance director for Democratic campaigns, said that fear of asking for money is common but easy to conquer.

“You are not wrong and not alone in feeling this way,” Dietrich told viewers, before explaining that the NDTC specifically teaches Democratic candidates how to map and grow their personal networks into a fundraising base. He also urged viewers to reframe how they think about asking for money.

“Your reality is not the donor’s reality,” Dietrich said, describing how his own discomfort with asking for large donations early in his career came from projecting his own limits onto potential campaign donors. “You’re going to get used to hearing no, and you’re going to love hearing yes.”

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How Trump’s Cuts to Medicare and the Affordable Care Act Are Driving Up Costs

Gibson opened by noting that President Donald Trump’s administration is ending federal subsidies to Medicare Part D, which is a double whammy for working-class Americans after Republicans allowed the enhanced Affordable Care Act premium tax credits to expire last year. ACA premiums are up anywhere from 58 to 114 percent, according to Kaiser Family Foundation data. Ford said the burden often falls squarely on emergency rooms like his.

“We in emergency medicine are the safety net for the country,” Ford said, pointing out that patients tend to delay care as long as they possibly can, until they reach a breaking point.

“When you can’t breathe, or when you know you have that stroke that could have been preventable, and you got to go to the emergency department,” Ford said, noting that by then, the damage is often much worse than had they been able to get non-emergency care.

Doctors ‘Scared as Hell’ About Rural Hospital Closures

Gibson then pivoted to Republicans’ so-called “One Big Beautiful Bill Act,” which Trump signed into law last year. The law includes more than $1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid, which provides health insurance to low-income and disabled Americans. But as Gibson noted, most of the more severe cuts won’t take effect until after the midterms. Ford said many of his across Wisconsin fear their hospitals are at risk of closing.

“You know, people are scared as hell,” Ford said, citing a University of North Carolina study tracking hospitals nationwide at risk of closure. He named three critical access hospitals in Wisconsin under threat — in Manitowoc, Stanley, and Osseo — and warned that losing them could mean potentially deadly delays for patients experiencing serious health episodes like heart attacks, strokes or complications with childbirth.

“That can be the difference between life and death,” Ford said of the extra time it would take for rural patients to reach the nearest hospital, particularly in states like Wisconsin with harsh winters.

Gibson noted that rural hospitals like St. Claire Regional Medical Center in Morehead, Kentucky (where he went to college) often also function as major economic engines for their communities, and that those hospitals closing could also be an economic disaster.

Ford agreed, and added that the risk of rural hospital closures only adds to the ongoing staffing crisis plaguing hospitals nationwide. He described how Wisconsin’s post-Dobbs abortion law drove obstetricians and gynecologists out of the state entirely, as they feared being prosecuted for simply doing what they were trained to do.

“The safety net is fraying,” Ford said. “There’s only so much that we can do.”

‘Witch Hunt Ran By a Clown Show’: Dr. Ford’s Choice Words for Republicans Attacking Dr. Fauci

Gibson also noted that on Thursday, Republicans on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee voted to Dr. Anthony Fauci in contempt after his repeated assertions of his Fifth Amendment rights during a recent hearing. He then asked Ford to compare Republicans’ political theater to his own harrowing experience treating Covid-19 patients on the front lines in 2020.

Ford described how he had to intubate a patient just two hours before his own son was born during the first Covid-19 shutdowns, and how he had to wear an N95 mask around his newborn for the child’s first six months because so little was known about the virus.

“Science is not about being right,” Ford said. “It’s about learning more. It’s about working with the evidence in front of you.”

The ER physician called the congressional hearing “a witch hunt ran by a clown show,” arguing their behavior was disrespectful of both Fauci’s decades of experience and of the sacrifices made by healthcare workers who, unlike Fauci’s critics, couldn’t stay home during the pandemic.

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Is Medicare for All a Solution to the Affordability Crisis?

After Dr. Abdul El-Sayed’s recent victory in Michigan’s Democratic U.S. Senate primary win, Gibson asked Ford whether El-Sayed’s promise to fight for Medicare for All (which he described in his April interview with Raw America) could realistically solve the affordability crisis, and what solutions Dr. Ford would like to see implemented as a physician.

Ford praised Medicare for All and said he appreciated El-Sayed’s advocacy for the policy, but also said its chances of becoming a reality in the near future were slim.

“It’s going to be hard as hell to get through just a single payer system in the way that our healthcare system is organized now,” Dr. Ford said.

He pointed instead to ideas with more bipartisan support, like “Medicare by Choice,” which would expand Medicare eligibility with new subsidies. He noted this was similar to successful universal healthcare models currently used in Germany and France. Ford also stressed the need for additional mental health coverage, describing how patients have been repeatedly turned away from care while in crisis simply because they lacked health insurance.

How Much Time Does it Cost Doctors to Fight With Insurers?

Gibson acknowledged that because Dr. Ford works in the emergency room, he personally doesn’t have the burden of having to contend with insurance providers. But he asked the ER physician whether his colleagues lament about the burden of navigating the confusing bureaucracy of private health insurance networks, and whether that ordeal tends to push more doctors toward supporting solutions like single-payer healthcare.

Ford confirmed that was a very real concern among his colleagues, and said insurance fights are almost always the top reason for physician burnout.

“I can diagnose you. I can tell you what you need to do,” Dr. Ford said. “But then you add in the added hurdle of now, okay, we have to find a way for you to afford it.”

The Milwaukee physician observed that even in emergency medicine, where pre-approvals aren’t required for treatment, the fallout from insurance denials often lands in his ER, given that patients who have no other options usually show up once conditions become emergencies.

The Threat of ‘Brain Drain’ in Healthcare

Since Trump returned to power in 2025, his administration has consistently made cuts to critical programs like the National Institutes of Health and zeroed out grants for important medical research, leading to scientists, physicians and others to leave the United States for countries more accepting of science. Gibson asked whether Ford was concerned about lasting damage from the administration’s cuts to programs aimed at training the next generation of doctors.

Ford pointed to his own experience suing the state of Wisconsin over its post-Dobbs abortion law alonngside his colleague Dr. Kristin Lyerly (also of the Paging America Substack). He said that following that law’s passage, residency applications to Wisconsin OB-GYN programs experienced a significant drop while rural maternity wards shuttered across the state. He also urged his fellow physicians to speak out against misinformation, calling it as an ethical obligation.

“If you’re standing on the sidelines and not saying anything, are you [com]plicit in this?” Ford said. “Everybody here needs to do their part.”

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Does the Profit Motive Belong in Healthcare?

To close the interview, Gibson referenced the book “An American Sickness” by Dr. Elizabeth Rosenthal, in which the author — a New York Times journalist and physician — diagnosed the problems with the American healthcare and prescribed multiple solutions. Gibson noted that Rosenthal’s book was rife with examples of how the pursuit of profit consistently interfered with the actual process of providing care, and then asked Dr. Ford whether it’s appropriate for private companies to treat healthcare as a profit center.

Ford quoted his mentor, who gave him a crucial piece of advice before he died of Covid-19 during the pandemic’s first wave: if you want to get rich, don’t go into medicine.

“I went into medicine to help people,” Dr. Ford said, reminding viewers that physicians’ salaries usually make up a single-digit percentage point of total healthcare spending. He contrasted that with private equity-backed insurers prioritizing profit over outcomes, and raking in billions as a result.

“They don’t really give a shit how the healthcare outcomes are,” Ford said of companies like UnitedHealthcare, arguing that healthcare reform should focus on redirecting money toward patient care and away from administrative profit.

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• His new Finance Committee report accusing major banks of anti-money-laundering violations tied to Epstein

• How J.P. Morgan executives allegedly coached Epstein on how to move money through various shell companies

• A damning internal J.P. Morgan email referencing “nymphettes” at Epstein’s home

• Specific dollar figures tied to Epstein’s payments to women in various high-risk countries from one of his J.P. Morgan accounts

• The specific Wall Street executives Wyden would subpoena if Democrats retake the Senate

• A possible connection between President Donald Trump’s nomination of Supreme Court Justicve Brett Kavanaugh and Deutsche Bank

• The DOJ’s withholding of roughly 2 million pages of Epstein-related documents

• Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche’s pending confirmation vote and Trump’s IRS audit exemption

• Whether Wyden has heard from Sen. Mitch McConnell’s (R-Ky.) office

• What Democrats hope to accomplish if they retake Congress

Live interviews like this — with a sitting U.S. senator, giving you inside knowledge on a story the billionaire-owned media is working hard to bury — are only possible because of Raw America’s paying subscribers funding this work. We’ll never take a dime from a billionaire and we don’t have a corporate parent watering down our coverage to please advertisers. Every exclusive report, every newsletter and every live interview with newsmakers like Sen. Wyden happens because our readers believe in independent journalism enough to become paying subscribers. If you’re reading this on a free subscription and find our work valuable, take a moment and upgrade to a paying membership right now.

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Big Banks Knew Epstein ‘Was Dirty’

Gibson opened by laying out the core argument in the Finance Committee’s report: that Bank of America, Deutsche Bank and J.P. Morgan Chase may have violated federal anti-money laundering laws by failing to screen and report payments — including from billionaire hedge fund manager Leon Black to Epstein — and by underreporting Epstein’s suspicious transactions to the Treasury Department. Wyden didn’t hold back when describing the report’s conclusions.

“Epstein would not have gotten away with sex trafficking for so long if these banks had done their job and followed the law,” Wyden said.

The Finance Committee’s ranking Democrat argued that bank executives “knew that Epstein was dirty, and they just looked the other way,” adding that in his view, it was because “they made money out of it as a result.” He said the report was designed to lay out “a roadmap for prosecution and investigation by federal law enforcement.”

Banks Coaching Epstein on Using Shell Companies

Gibson noted one of the report’s most striking findings was that top J.P. Morgan executives reportedly coached Epstein on how to withdraw his cash through various shell companies instead of through his personal accounts. This helped him obscure the money trail from federal compliance officers and regulators.

Wyden called that particular finding “a showstopper,” but said the real test now is what comes next, and if Congress and the administration has the guts to actually pursue accountability.

“We want to make sure that the regulators, Treasury, the Federal Reserve, DOJ, follow the roadmap and hold these guys responsible,” Wyden said, calling the revelation “a jaw-dropper.”

Bank Executive Commented on ‘Nymphettes’ at Epstein’s House

Gibson brought up one specific document Wyden posted publicly to his Bluesky account: an email from a J.P. Morgan executive comparing the exclusive Union Club to Epstein’s residence, joking that it was “more tasteful” but with “fewer nymphettes.” Gibson asked whether this suggested deeper knowledge inside the bank of what Epstein was doing.

Wyden agreed, and accused J.P. Morgan of trying to “whitewash” its role in Epstein’s network. He argued that “the top executives were up to their eyeballs” in their relationship with the notorious sex trafficker, and observed that some of the people involved — specifically J.P. Morgan asset ands wealth management division CEO Mary Erdoes — “are still there, making big money.”

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Banks Looked the Other Way on Epstein’s Suspicious Payments

Gibson walked viewers through some of the specific figures in the report, and chronicled how Epstein made hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments to women and girls in countries like Belarus, Lithuania, and Russia in the years leading up to his 2019 prosecution. This includes more than $500,000 in payments in 2011 alone.

Wyden’s report notes that J.P. Morgan neglected to flag those payments to authorities when it could have made a difference. He also said the bank showed a consistent pattern of doing “as little as possible,” and only acting after the fact rather than stopping problems as they emerged.

“They did everything they could to keep from doing steps that would help now,” Wyden said, “and then in the future get clean because they were doing something retroactive.”

Wyden’s Subpoena List if Democrats Retake the Senate

With the 2026 midterms rapidly approaching in less than 100 days, Democrats’ odds of retaking both chambers are steadily improving by the day. Gibson reminded viewers that a Democratic Senate majority would make Wyden chairman of the Finance Committee — with subpoena power.

Gibson ran through several names Wyden has floated for testimony: Mary Erdoes, former Barclays CEO Jes Staley, former J.P. Morgan Chase general counsel Stephen Cutler, and others. When asked what he would ask them if they came before his committee, Wyden kept it simple.

“We want to ask them why they tolerated this for so long,” Wyden said. He argued the executives were supposed to flag exploitation when they saw it, like Epsten “hurting girls and women.” He lamented that the men and women in charge of these institutions had the power to do something but instead “just tried to escape any kind of responsibility.”

A Possible Supreme Court Connection

Gibson asked Wyden about the possibility of one particularly high-profile set of subpoenas for either former Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy (a Ronald Reagan appointee) and/or his son, Justin Kennedy, who was an executive at Deutsche Bank between 1997 and 2009.

Gibson laid out the timeline prior to Epstein’s 2019 death in prison: Justice Kennedy’s retired in 2018, paving the way for Donald Trump to nominate Brett Kavanaugh to replace him. He then asked that given how Kennedy’s son worked at Deutsche Bank for more than a decade, whether Wyden would use his subpoena powers to bring Kennedy or his son before the committee to question them over their knowledge of links between Trump and Epstein.

“We’re not ruling anything out at this point,” Wyden said, though he pivoted to a broader frustration. The Oregon senator accused his Republicans colleagues of having “talked a big game” about Epstein, but then said they “weren’t there” when Democrats needed their votes to get subpoenas through.

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Revealing the Rest of the Epstein Files

The conversation then turned to how the Justice Department, under Todd Blanche, is still sitting on roughly two million pages of Epstein-related documents that still have yet to see the light of day. This is all in spite of the bipartisan Epstein Files Transparency Act — which Trump signed into law last year — mandating that the DOJ release all files to the public.

Wyden suggested that the files may eventually lead to new information about the decades-old allegations that Epstein was tied to money laundering and drug trafficking dating back to the 1990s. He said his office has been trying to obtain those materials, but has hit a wall despite the records being unclassified.

“[Todd Blanche is] making it impossible for a United States senator who’s been doing a four-year investigation to get something that’s called unclassified,” Wyden said.

Gibson then mentioned the Taking Epstein Survivors Seriously (TESS) database created in part by Colorado-based attorney Anne P. Mitchell to give Americans a window into the enormity of the financial crimes committed by Epstein and others in his network over the decades. He then asked whether Wyden’s staff was aware of the database and whether further financial investigations could follow if Democrats retake not just Congress in 2026, but the DOJ after the 2028 election.

Wyden said the investigation is ongoing and expressed interest in connecting with the database’s creator, and Gibson offered to connect Mitchell to his staff after their conversation.

Wyden on Todd Blanche, the IRS Audit Exemption, Mitch McConnell, and Tariff Refunds

With the Senate preparing to gavel out for the next five weeks, Gibson asked Wyden about whether Blanche is indeed going to be confirmed as attorney general. He noted that Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) has come out in opposition to his confirmation, while Sens. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) and John Cornyn (R-Texas) voted him out of the Senate Judiciary Committee after he agreed in writing to kill Trump’s slush fund for MAGA loyalists.

Wyden said he was deeply concerned about both the prospect of the slush fund potentially being revived down the road, along with the IRS audit exemption for Trump, his family and his businesses.

“I think the idea that Donald Trump would be the only person in the United States fully exempt from IRS audit is the ultimate indictment of the way they do business,” Wyden said.

Gibson also noted he’s a constituent of Sen. McConnell and asked Wyden that, given Mitch McConnell’s extended absence from the Senate that has now dragged on for more than 50 days, whether the Oregon Democrat had personally heard anything from McConnell’s office about his health or whereabouts.

“I’m not getting any information,” Wyden said. “I’m not probably the first person they’d contact, but I haven’t heard anything about it. Very unusual.”

Gibson closed out the interview by asking what Wyden is hearing from his Oregon constituents heading into recess about what they hope Democrats will do should they retake Congress, and whether there’s any path for consumers to recoup money lost to Trump’s illegal tariffs.

Wyden said tackling the ongoing affordability crisis and the Trump administration’s corruption top the list of concerns he’s hearing. On tariffs, he said Democrats are pushing for accountability, noting that Trump’s own lawyers “said that they would stay with it and get people refunds” in litigation, but that the administration has taken only “some baby steps” toward actually making consumers whole.

Raw America is doing all of this without a billionaire backer or running ads from corporate sponsors. Interviews like this one, with a sitting U.S. senator, are only made possible with the direct financial support of paying subscribers. We owe all of this to readers like you, who have decided that high-quality independent journalism is worth paying for. If you’re still reading us on a free subscription, make today the day you upgrade. We can’t do any of this without you.

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Read the full transcript of Gibson and Senator Wyden’s conversation below:

CARL GIBSON: Welcome to another edition of Raw America Live. We’re very excited today to have Senator Ron Wyden join us here on Raw America this afternoon. Ron is the ranking Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee. He is the senior U.S. senator from Oregon, and his office just released a pretty explosive report about how big Wall Street banks enabled Jeffrey Epstein for years, helped him move millions of dollars. The senator is going to talk all about that report. Senator Wyden, thank you so much for joining us here at Raw America. We appreciate it.

SENATOR RON WYDEN: Hey, thanks for having me on your show. Heard a lot of good things.

CG: Perfect. Always like hearing that. Well, senator, let’s get right into it here. So, I’m seeing here. I read this report, and it was pretty astounding. So, for those of you not familiar, Bank of America, Deutsche Bank, J.P. Morgan Chase likely violated federal anti-money laundering laws by basically failing to help screen and report payments from people like billionaire Leon Black, hedge fund manager, to Jeffrey Epstein, as well as underreporting Epstein’s suspicious transactions to the Treasury Department as required under federal law. Senator, talk about this report and what you hope happens as a result of this.

RW: Well, the most important thing is, is that people understand what this issue is all about. And Epstein would not have gotten away with sex trafficking for so long if these banks had done their job and followed the law. And these bank executives knew that Epstein was dirty, and they just looked the other way, and they did primarily, in my view, because they made money out of it as a result. And what we do in our report is lay out a roadmap for prosecution and investigation by federal law enforcement, and that’s the next step.

CG: I’m seeing here in this report as well several top executives at J.P. Morgan Chase actually coach Jeffrey Epstein on how to withdraw his cash from multiple shell companies rather than from his personal accounts, which, as I understand it, helped him hide information from federal offices, compliance personnel, government regulators. That alone seems like a pretty explosive crime. Do you think that there might be some criminal referrals that could come out of this?

RW: Well, it certainly struck me as a showstopper, but that’s the whole point now: is what happens, you know, next. And we want to make sure that the regulators, Treasury, the Federal Reserve, DOJ, follow the roadmap and hold these guys responsible, but I thought it was a jaw-dropper.

CG: Well, and one thing that’s particularly jaw dropping to me, you include an email from David Brigstocke, who I believe, and you posted this on your Bluesky account. I believe he’s a current or former J.P. Morgan executive. He apparently had knowledge of Epstein’s sex trafficking, or at least tangential knowledge of it. I’m quoting here: “the size of the Union Club. In fact, it used to be a club. Reminded me of J. E’s house, [Jeffrey Epstein’s house], except it was more tasteful and fewer nymphettes.” It seems like they have pretty extensive knowledge of what Epstein was up to. Is that your assessment?

RW: You bet. And J.P. Morgan constantly is trying to do whitewash business and trying to make it look like they were just the absolute epitome of responsibility. But we just think that in so much of what goes on at J.P. Morgan, the top executives were up to their work with Epstein up to their eyeballs, Mary Erdoes and some of these kind of people are still there making big money.

CG: Exactly, and you know, as your as your report shows, so Jeffrey Epstein made millions of dollars in direct payments to various women and young girls from just one of his J.P. Morgan accounts. You wrote on Bluesky: “A lot of these payments were to women in high-risk countries like Belarus, Lithuania, Russia.” It looks like in 2008, he spent $302,000 on these types of payments. 2011, $539,020. 2013, $473,000. At no point, as I understand, did J.P. Morgan flag any of these transactions to these countries. Is that correct?

RW: As far as I can tell, what J.P. Morgan tried to do was little as possible, and then think that everything was fine if they did something retroactive, which was exactly what we were concerned about with these three big big companies is that they were doing everything they can to stop. They they did everything they could to keep from doing steps that would help now and and then in the future get get clean because they were doing something retroactive.

CG: Now, Senator, you mentioned, and I think this is very important as we head into the midterms. Less than 100 days to go before voters head to the polls. It looks like Democrats have a good chance of retaking the House of Representatives. Democrats’ chances of retaking the Senate are also on the rise. If Democrats retake the Senate, you would be chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and would have subpoena power. You’ve named several Wall Street executives you would like to bring forward to the committee and subpoena. I’m going to name several of those: Paul Morris, Mary Erdoes, who you mentioned earlier, Jess Staley, Stephen Cutler. Who are some of these other names? And talk about what you’d like to ask them if you had the power to subpoena them and bring them to your committee?

RW: Well, we we want to ask them why they tolerated this for so long. I mean, they are supposed to have a kind of good government approach when they see these kinds of things that are taking advantage of people hurting girls and women. They’re supposed to step up, bring it to the attention of government. Why did they do none of that, and instead just tried to escape any kind of responsibility?

CG: You know, Senator, one question that I had when seeing this was, you know, people may not be familiar with the timeline. 2019, Jeffrey Epstein died in prison. 2018, Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy resigned from the Supreme Court, retired, and Trump was able to appoint his replacement, Brett Kavanaugh. Now, Justice Kennedy’s son used to work at Deutsche Bank for about a decade, and I’m wondering, senator, if you’re able to chair the Finance Committee come 2027, would you be willing to issue a subpoena to Justice Kennedy or his son and ask if they had any connections to or knowledge of Trump and Epstein?

RW: Well, we’re we’re not ruling anything out at this point, but one of the things that was particularly disturbing is that the Republicans in the Senate talked a big game, talked about how serious they were about dealing with Epstein, and then when we tried to get them to help with the subpoena, they weren’t there.

CG: Yeah, because, like you said nothing is off the table, and that’s interesting to know because you know I think this thing potentially goes a lot deeper. I know Todd Blanch and the DOJ are currently sitting on at least two million pages of Epstein-related documents that we have yet to see and that have not been released. So I’m wondering, you know—

RW: —You know, the significance of that is that there were, back in the ‘90s, all kinds of implications that Epstein was involved in money laundering and drugs and the like, and we have been trying to get those materials from Blanche, and they’re on a document that says unclassified. So he’s making it impossible for a United States senator who’s been doing a four-year investigation to get something that’s called unclassified.

CG: Well, and Senator, you know, previously a couple months ago, we had an attorney, Anne Mitchell, come on this program, and she talked about a database she created called TESS, [Taking Epstein Survivors Seriously]. She created this database to basically search through the Epstein files to allow people to have a window into the various financial crimes that Epstein had committed. Like you said, dating back decades. I wanted to ask if your staff was a aware of that database, and if you foresee additional financial investigations into the Epstein network, not only should Democrats retake Congress in November, but should they retake control of the DOJ after 2028?

RW: Well, first of all, we are continuing our investigations. We point that out in the report, and I’d very much like to be able to be in touch with this person who’s running this database.

CG: And I can connect her to your staff as well. It’s pretty explosive. I’ve I’ve gotten to look at it for a while. I wanted to ask, senator, as we’re talking about Epstein — and of course Todd Blanche’s is potentially going to be confirmed by the Senate pretty soon, I know you guys are trying to leave for August recess pretty shortly — how do you feel about Todd Blanche’s chances of being confirmed by the full Senate? I know Susan Collins came out against his confirmation, but of course Thom Tillis and John Cornyn passed him out of the Judiciary Committee. Do you feel Todd Blanche could be fully confirmed this week as attorney general?

RW: I’m concerned about it, and as the ranking Democrat on the Finance Committee, I’ve led the fight to get rid of this special audit exemption. I think the idea that Donald Trump would be the only person in the United States fully exempt from IRS audit is the ultimate indictment of the way they do business.

CG: And like, walk us through this, Senator, because as I understand, John Cornyn and Thom Tillis were satisfied with him putting in writing the slush fund is dead. But like you mentioned, that IRS audit protection that’s still in place, and I don’t really see anything in that document that says Trump can’t just bring back the slush fund at some point. I mean, is that a concern?

RW: I agree completely. It’s a top concern.

CG: And obviously with Mitch McConnell being absent from the Senate for a long period of time, I know that’s one less Republican vote. I’m wondering, senator, since I have you here, have you heard anything from Mitch McConnell’s office or staff about his whereabouts, his health? I’m one of his constituents here in Kentucky, and I have yet to hear anything about my senator.

RW: I’m not getting any information. I’m not probably the first person they’d contact, but I haven’t heard anything about it. Very unusual.

CG: And of course, real quick before August recess happens, you’re about to go back and talk to your constituents. What are you hearing from your constituents about things that they are hoping Democrats will do should they retake the majority? I know obviously Epstein investigations are a big one, but what are some things that you hope Democrats can accomplish should they regain a majority in November?

RW: I think the two things they really care about are costs and corruption. You know, around their kitchen table, they’re getting clobbered. I’m fighting Trump on these tariffs, and Democrats have always said we’re concerned about affordability. They’re letting him get all these extra tariffs. I think that’s a big mistake.

CG: Greg Casar, chairman of the House Progressive Caucus, he recently said that Americans should be the ones getting the refunds from the tariffs. I was seeing a CBO study that—

RW: —That’s way too logical for this administration.

CG: Exactly! You know, a lot of people have they paid so many higher prices because of these tariffs. These corporations are reaping the rewards. Like, is there any recourse for consumers like us to get some of this money back that we paid in higher prices?

RW: We’re pushing very hard, and I’m in particular pointing out that Trump’s lawyers in his litigation before the court said that they would stay with it and get people refunds, and he sure hasn’t done much. He’s done some baby steps, but not much. I’m being told I got to run to the next thing, but does that give you enough to start with?

CG: Absolutely, Senator. Thank you for taking the time. We really appreciate you coming on.

RW: Let’s do it again. I’d like to do it again.

CG: Absolutely, Senator. I would too.

RW: All right. Big thanks.

• How teachers and parents are being financially squeezed by rising gas, grocery, and housing costs

• The fallout from cuts to Medicaid and food stamps under the Trump administration

• The tripling of student loan payments after Trump ended Biden’s SAVE repayment plan

• Whether a future Democratic administration should cancel federal student debt

• Education Secretary Linda McMahon’s praise for AI-taught “Alpha Schools”

• How screens and generative AI harm children’s ability to learn

• Whether teachers might strike again, as they did during the first Trump administration

• How teachers in deep-red, right-to-work states can start organizing unions

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Teachers and Parents Are ‘Not Making It’ Financially

Gibson opened by asking Weingarten what AFT was hearing from its members about growing financial stress as the 2026-2027 school year approaches. Weingarten said a survey of 7,500 AFT members earlier this year found that three-quarters of them living paycheck to paycheck, with half of the union’s members counted among low-wage workers as adjunct faculty and paraprofessionals.

“You need seventy-five, $80,000 to live in a city these days,” Weingarten said, arguing that even with collective bargaining raises of three or four percent annually, many members can’t keep up with rising housing, gas, and grocery costs. She called for things like increasing the federal minimum wage to $25 an hour (something Gibson also called for in a 2021 Barron’s op-ed) and a new federal tax cut for workers, saying working-class people simply need “cash.”

Weingarten connected the ongoing affordability crisis directly to President Donald Trump and Republicans’ so-called “One Big Beautiful Bill Act” (OBBBA) and three compounding effects: roughly $1 trillion in Medicaid cuts shutting down rural hospitals, changes to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, or food stamps) that she said stripped away support for healthier school meals, and new tariffs pushing costs of consumer goods even higher.

“People are one illness away from bankruptcy,” she said of the hospital closures.

Student Loan Payments Have Tripled for Many Borrowers

Much of the conversation between Gibson and Weingarten centered on new federal student loan repayment terms outlined in the OBBBA. Weingarten said the elimination of former President Joe Biden’s SAVE plan has resulted in some of her union’s members paying roughly $440 a month, up from what had been closer to a more manageable cost of $60 or $100.

Weingarten noted that more than 3.6 million borrowers have defaulted since the changes took effect — a rate she described as one borrower defaulting every nine seconds — while total student debt has nearly tripled across 44 million young borrowers. She also argued the savings from eliminating income-driven repayment plans were redirected toward other priorities.

“Why? Because it was — it was used, all those repayment plans, all the saved interest, was used for tax cuts for billionaires,” Weingarten said.

Gibson pressed Weingarten on whether piling new costs onto borrowers made political sense for Republicans hoping to hold their congressional majorities this November. Weingarten proposed that Republicans’ strategy instead relies on manufacturing a cultural divide between working-class Americans who choose to attend college versus those who don’t.

“What they’re doing is they’re basically hammering at colleges and making it less affordable, and suggesting that there is an elitism to the people who are trying to go to college,” she said, adding that the goal is to conceal budget cuts in order “to pay for tax cuts for the rich.”

Should a Future Democratic President Cancel Federal Student Loan Debt?

Gibson proposed that the Biden administration had perhaps missed a chance to broadly discharge most federal student debt. He noted that the Higher Education Act of 1965 allows the secretary of education to have broad leeway over federal student loans, and noted that then-Education Secretary Miguel Cardona did not exercise that authority under Biden’s presidency. He then asked whether a future Democratic administration should pursue full cancellation.

Weingarten stopped short of endorsing the discharging of all federal student debt, but agreed the current system is “completely unaffordable” and pointed to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program (in which student loans for graduates working in the public sector or nonprofit organizations can be forgiven after 10 years) as a template for capping how much borrowers ultimately have to repay.

“We should never be in a situation where people think the first generation going to college is elite. It’s opportunity,” she said, adding that Democrats “lost the narrative” on affordability by acting too slowly and communicating poorly.

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Linda McMahon’s Endorsement of AI to Replace Teachers and How AI Harms Students

Turning to education policy, Gibson pointed to Education Secretary Linda McMahon’s praise for the “Alpha School” in Austin, Texas, which uses AI to provide instruction to students while human staff serve as “guides” rather than teachers. Weingarten didn’t hold back in her criticism of both McMahon and the idea that AI could replace human teachers.

“Linda McMahon may be the only living human being that thinks that teachers are replaceable by humanoids,” Weingarten said, noting that even Silicon Valley executives opt to send their kids to schools that don’t allow personal electronic devices.

Weingarten also questioned the transparency of Alpha Schools, telling Gibson that the facilities have so far declined to let AFT observe how their AI provides instruction to students.

“They won’t let us visit. So what does that tell you?” she said.

Weingarten went on to describe a policy platform she laid out in a May speech dubbed “Devices Down, Eyes Up, Hands On.” Weingarten explained that research shows excessive screen time can significantly impact children’s cognition, attention spans and imagination during their critical developmental years between the ages of zero and six. She said AFT now supports banning all screens for students until after second grade, along with banning all student-facing AI in elementary schools. She said that can allow children to have the space to build their foundational critical thinking skills before they’re introduced to technology.

Gibson referenced a 2025 study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology finding that adults aged 18 to 39 who used ChatGPT to write essays showed reduced brain function compared to those who didn’t. Weingarten agreed there’s a meaningful difference between assistive AI tools and generative AI that’s often used as a shortcut around actual learning, arguing that AI is only useful to someone who already understands the material.

“There’s a really important place for critical thinking, for struggling to learn, for actually connecting the dots,” Weingarten said.

Could Teachers Strike Again Soon?

Gibson then asked Weingarten whether AFT members might stage massive strikes similar to the wave of red-state teacher walkouts during the first Trump administration in states like Oklahoma and West Virginia. Weingarten urged that any action should be organized and backed by legal infrastructure.

Weingarten said that in West Virginia and Oklahoma, teacher strikes won short-term gains that were ultimately rolled back because those teachers lacked collective bargaining protections in their respective states. She then contrasted those efforts with a recent teacher strike in San Francisco that led to a concrete victory by securing premium-free healthcare for union member households.

“We are the fastest growing union in the United States of America,” Weingarten said, pointing to 179 newly organized units nationwide.

How Teachers in Deep-Red States Can Organize Their Own Unions

Gibson concluded by asking Weingarten what advice she would give teachers in deep-red states with anti-union right-to-work laws who are trying to organize their own unions. She encouraged teachers to start small, beginning with just a handful of committed colleagues, and to lean on the First Amendment to defend their right of association.

Weingarten pointed to an AFT lawsuit defending Texas teachers who nearly lost their jobs over private comments made after Charlie Kirk’s assassination, and a recent successful union election among librarians in Columbus, Ohio, where 80 percent of those present voted to unionize.

“If you get a bunch of people to be willing to act together, work together, be together, vote together, do that — that is the power of the people,” Weingarten said. “And the power of the people, still in a democracy, if we keep our democracy, still beats the power of privilege and the power of money.”

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• Sen. Mitch McConnell’s (R-Ky.) ongoing unexplained absence and rumors about his health

• Questionable details of McConnell’s “proof of life” photos

• Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear’s (D) options for filling a potential Senate vacancy

• How McConnell has kept getting reelected despite being universally loathed

• Karem’s new report on “Havana Syndrome” and the mysterious origins of a suspected sonic weapon

• Media consolidation and its effect on investigative reporting

• The differences between covering Trump’s first and second administrations

• Growing concerns about 80 year-old President Donald Trump’s health

• Karem’s history covering four decades of the White House press corps, and how his Playboy press pass literally saved his life

We want to thank our paying subscribers for conversations like this, in which Raw America’s White House reporter and managing editor break down the biggest news of the day coming out of the Capitol. You are quite literally keeping the lights on, and directly making it possible for Raw America to have boots on the ground in Washington, covering the stories the billionaire-owned outlets won’t touch.

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Is Mitch McConnell Still Alive?

Gibson began by asking Karem on the rumors swirling around McConnell, who hasn’t voted since being hospitalized on June 14 and who has now missed 29 votes in the Senate. Karem framed the secrecy as consistent with McConnell’s decades-long approach to public life, going back to the senator’s origins as a Reagan-era moderate-who later transitioned into the biggest power broker in Kentucky politics.

“This is all Mitch drama, fresh Mitch drama,” Karem said, adding that McConnell has “always been about the drama” dating back to his first election to the U.S. Senate in 1984.

Karem said he’s heard every version of events — that McConnell has aphasia (a speaking disorder), that he’s in a coma, that he’s dead and his staff are waiting until the window passes for a special election — and emphasized that he can’t confirm any of it given how tight-lipped McConnell’s staff has been. But he zeroed in on the silence from the senator’s office as the most telling detail.

“The fact that there are people who work for him who don’t know what’s going on, and I mean, I’ve known these people for years. [They] don’t know what’s going on. What does that tell you?” Karem said.

Karem went on to say the senator’s team may be trying to run out the calendar until August 3, specifically to avoid triggering a special election.

“It’ll come out when Mitch and Mitch’s people want to, even if he’s dead,” Karem said.

Karem Deconstructs McConnell’s Proof-of-Life Photo

Gibson brought up a photo released over the weekend showing McConnell in the same red shirt as an earlier image, this time posed with someone other than his wife, Elaine Chao. Karem said the image raised more questions than it answered, pointing to mismatched room numbers, a visible patient chart, and an IV bag positioned oddly far from the bed.

“That’s a starched clean shirt there, brother — it just come out of the laundry,” Karem said, questioning when and where the photo was actually taken. He said he’s been told McConnell is in a private rehab facility rather than a hospital, but that verifying even that much has proven difficult.

Karem framed the entire situation as part of a broader pattern of stonewalling. “If you’re around, I’ve interviewed you for 40 some odd years — just show up and take a couple of questions,” he said, addressing McConnell directly. “We really care.”

Karem Calls on Governor Andy Beshear to Get Busy Finding McConnell’s Replacement

Gibson noted that two-term Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear (D) has said he’s been told by unnamed sources that McConnell may have died, and asked Karem whether the term-limited governor may act preemptively despite Kentucky’s Republican supermajority legislature seeking to limit his powers.

Karem said the laws GOP lawmakers in the Kentucky statehouse have passed regarding Beshear’s appointment powers likely wouldn’t pass muster in court — which is exactly why Kentucky Republicans want to avoid the fight altogether. Karem, who is a native of Louisville, Kentucky, noted that Republicans are hoping GOP Senate nominee will have the cleanest path possible to replace McConnell in November without having to compete with an incumbent appointed by Beshear.

Raw America’s White House correspondent pointed out that Beshear has lately been flirting with a potential run for the presidency in 2028, and that he could use this moment to his advantage.

“Look, Andy Beshear has made pretense of running for president. All right, well, you know what? Be demonstrative. Show us the leadership now,” Karem said. “Do it, and quit telling.”

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How Does McConnell Keep Winning Elections?

One viewer of Gibson and Karem’s conversation pointed out in the live chat that McConnell seems to have no trouble getting reelected every six years despite being consistently one of the least popular senators in the country.

Gibson — who is also a Kentucky native — noted McConnell has a particularly long record of directing federal appropriations back to Kentucky’s 120 counties via so-called “pork barrel” projects. He added that the city of Pikeville on the eastern edge of the commonwealth likely “wouldn’t exist” without federal money McConnell inserted into various spending bills over the years.

Karem said he personally has no issue with pork-barrel spending, but argued it’s buried a much deeper problem with McConnell.

“Mitch McConnell bribed, cajoled, threatened when he had to, paid off when he could, everyone who would ever oppose him,” Karem said. “Where is the integrity in that? We deserve better.”

Karem Breaks Down the U.S. Origins Behind a Weapon Being Used on Americans

Shifting topics, Gibson highlighted Karem’s recent Raw America report on what’s been called “Havana Syndrome.” That’s the term used to describe mysterious health episodes affecting U.S. diplomats and intelligence officers around the world, having first been documented in Havana, Cuba.

Karem traced the technology’s origins back to a passive listening device discovered in an American ambassador’s office in the 1940s, and said the underlying microwave-based technology has been “tuned up” ever since and used by American adversaries like China and Russia.

He said whistleblowers personally described a consistent pattern: “You’re standing in a room, your ears start to ring, your head starts to hurt, and then you walk two or three feet away and it stops.” Karem said the CIA has never acknowledged the phenomenon as real, leaving victims unable to get necessary medical care covered.

Karem connected the story to the broader issue of right-wing billionaires buying up media outlets, noting that media consolidation has led to fewer investigative reporters able to pursue complex, resource-intensive stories like this one.

“The only real journalism is investigative journalism. And the backbone of all journalism is local journalism,” Karem said, describing how national stories like Havana Syndrome typically start with local reporters noticing patterns.

The Biggest Difference Between Trump 1.0 and 2.0? Trump Is More ‘Muddled’ and ‘Dangerous’

When asked to how Trump’s two administrations compare since Karem has covered both of them, the Raw America White House correspondent said the biggest change has been the president’s declining physical and mental sharpness, as well as his accessibility.

Karem observed that in Trump’s first term, the president seemed to take joy in “the fight” of sparring with reporters in regular Q&A sessions. But in his second term, Karem noted that Trump is noticeably more “muddled” and “befuddled,” in addition to being what Karem estimated to be around 30 pounds heavier.

“He’s often not making sense, and he doesn’t engage with the press like he used to,” Karem said, adding that access is now mostly restricted to right-wing media and the press pool of roughly 15 handpicked reporters.

Karem opined that Trump’s nationally televised address last Thursday night marked a uniquely low point for the presidency itself, calling it “the worst speech by far of any president I’ve ever covered” since the Reagan administration.

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Karem Reveals What His Pentagon Sources Call Pete Hegseth Behind His Back

While acknowledging that Karem can’t give up his confidential sources, Gibson asked the veteran White House reporter about rumors surrounding various people in Trump’s inner circle. Karem confirmed that White House chief of staff Susie Wiles and deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller are the only ones with “walk-in” privileges to the Oval Office, and suggested that those two were more responsible than anyone else for “controlling” the president.

Karem also elaborated on what he’s heard about Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, saying sources inside the Pentagon have various unflattering nicknames for the part-time weekend Fox News host-turned-secretary of the newly christened “Department of War.”

“They call him Major,” Karem said of Hegseth, explaining the nickname is meant as an insult likening the defense secretary to an annoying middle management executive with no practical experience.

“And then when they really want to be insulting, they call him ‘little major,’” Karem added.

Karem argued that the insecurity that seems to consume people inside the president’s inner circle makes them even more “dangerous” despite their incompetence and lack of experience.

“They are extremely nervous individuals, extremely insecure individuals and extremely inept in what they do,” Karem said.

Karem Compares Press Coverage of Trump to Biden

Gibson asked directly about the increasingly frequent reports about Trump’s declining health issues, noting that he’s been officially diagnosed with chronic venous insufficiency (which can cause swelling in the ankles). He also asked Karem about Trump’s apparent heavy use of makeup to cover unsightly bruises on his hands, and his pattern of more frequent cognitive testing.

Karem reminded viewers that the press has seemed to paper over Trump’s obvious decline, and contrasted that with the zealous coverage of former President Joe Biden’s cognitive health.

“Having to take cognitive tests every four months, there’s a reason for that,” Karem said. “We haven’t reported Donald’s. Why is that? Is it because Donald controls the media, or that we’re exasperated and numb to all of it?”

Karem made it clear he isn’t a doctor and can’t officially diagnose the president, but spoke plainly about what he’s personally seen in the West Wing.

“Donald Trump is demonstrably nuts,” Karem said said, adding that reporters covering the White House regularly share their own speculation about the president’s health off the record, even when they can’t put their names to it.

How Karem’s Playboy Press Pass Saved His Life

Toward the end of the interview, Gibson asked about an anecdote Karem previously shared: how his old Playboy press credential from his years as the magazine’s chief White House correspondent helped save him twice, once in a war zone and once during the January 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol.

“That Playboy press pass got me into a few places I probably still can’t discuss,” Karem said, recalling how a Capitol rioter’s fascination with the credential defused a potentially violent attack at the hands of several insurrectionists. “He goes, ‘Ah, Playboy, can you get me into the mansion?’ I said, ‘Sure, anytime you want, pal.’”

Karem also reflected on Playboy’s frequently overlooked journalistic legacy, noting it published early coverage of the Civil Rights Movement and ran lengthy articles on influential figures like Roots author Alex Haley and legendary civil rights icon Malcolm X.

“I was there simply for the literary effort,” he joked.

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• 3 million people dropping ACA coverage after Republicans let tax credits expire

• What Dr. Davidson personally witnessed treating uninsured patients in the ER

• How the ACA changed his practice for the better

• The threat to rural hospitals from the “big ugly bill’s” Medicaid cuts

• What happens to rural communities when a local hospital closes

• Healthcare as a top midterm issue and what comes next

• Treating healthcare as a public good instead of a for-profit industry

• Money in politics as the root obstacle to real reform, and more

Conversations like this one, where an experienced ER physician lays out exactly what’s wrong with the American healthcare system, require resources. In-depth journalism featuring a qualified expert sharing inside knowledge you won’t find anywhere else is only possible because of readers who decide independent media is worth funding. We don’t have a billionaire backer or corporate advertisers. We have you. If you find conversations like this valuable, please become a paying subscriber today.

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3 Million Dropped ACA Insurance Plans After Republicans Let Tax Credits Lapse

Gibson opened the conversation by citing a recent report that roughly 3 million people have dropped their Affordable Care Act (ACA) plans since Republicans in Congress allowed premium tax credits to expire, marking a 13 percent drop in enrollment.

Dr. Davidson acknowledged that the financial obstacles patients face are hard to miss, even in emergency rooms where insurance isn’t a factor. He described seeing a patient this week who likely should have been admitted to the hospital but went home instead.

“That’s a lot of money, I’m gonna go home, I’ll come back if things get worse, I’ll follow up with the doctor tomorrow,” Dr. Davidson recalled the patient saying.

Dr. Davidson said the broader pattern troubles him most: when millions lose coverage, they make healthcare decisions based on cost rather than their actual medical needs.

How the ACA Improved Healthcare in Rural America

Gibson asked Dr. Davidson, who has practiced emergency medicine since the late 1990s, to compare his practice before and after the ACA’s passage in 2010. Davidson said that before the ACA, he’d see patients repeatedly for unrelated minor injuries, only to notice things like their blood pressure climbing each visit because they had no primary care doctor and no coverage.

But after the ACA expanded Medicaid — with his state of Michigan accepting expanded Medicaid in 2014 — he says he watched some of those same patients get on blood pressure and cholesterol medication and finally get their own primary care provider. He noted Michigan was one of roughly 40 states that expanded Medicaid, benefiting nearly a million residents in the Mitten State. Nationally, ACA enrollment peaked at 23 million and has since fallen to about 19.2 million, which Davidson attributed to Republican policies.

The Human Cost of Losing Coverage

The Kaiser Family Foundation estimated that the number of insured Americans could eventually plummet to 17.5 million as ACA plans become more costly without the tax credits. Dr. Davidson pointed to two distinct dangers if that comes to pass.

The first is what happens to people who lose coverage directly: the longtime physician recalled one patient who waited five days after a heart attack to seek care because he was uninsured. By the time he finally arrived, his heart function had been reduced by half. Davidson contrasted that with patients who get treatment within the first few hours of chest pain, who can often avoid lasting damage.

The second danger, according to Davidson, is what happens when the risk pool of insured Americans shrinks. Younger, healthier people are more likely to drop their coverage and “roll the dice,” meaning those remaining are older and sicker, prompting insurers to raise premiums and deductibles. Some insurers like Cigna are already exiting ACA markets in certain regions for 2027 due to being unable to cover those communities. In Cigna’s case, that’s resulting in 369,000 fewer people with coverage.

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Rural Hospitals Already Contending with Medicaid Cuts

Gibson brought up the roughly $1 trillion in Medicaid cuts Republicans’ “big ugly bill” locked in, and what that means for rural communities. Dr. Davidson noted that roughly 20 percent of hospitals in Virginia recently reported being on the brink of closure, while several hospitals in his own state are at risk of closing as well. He said he’s already seeing some hospital administrators cut back services, reduce specialist availability and rolling back lab and X-ray hours in anticipation of losing Medicaid funding once the cuts take effect — notably, not until after the midterms.

Dr. Davidson cautioned the harshest cuts are yet to come, and theorized that lawmakers who voted for the cuts may be trying to delay the political fallout as much as possible.

Gibson cited a 2025 study by the University of North Carolina’s Sheps Center for Health Services Research, referenced in a letter from several senators warning that roughly 330 rural hospitals nationwide were at risk of closure. This includes four in Dr. Davidson’s home state, and 35 in Gibson’s home state of Kentucky.

The Shock to Rural Communities When a Hospital Closes

Gibson asked what options rural residents have once their local hospital shuts its doors. Dr. Davidson pointed out that the impact isn’t limited to Medicaid patients.

“Even people with employer coverage or Medicare will be affected, because the hospitals and services disappear regardless of who’s paying,” he said.

Davidson described patients in remote areas like Michigan’s Upper Peninsula having to face multi-hour drives just to get basic screenings, as well as EMS systems being pushed to the brink by longer transport distances and rising fuel costs. He added this could lead to worse outcomes for time-sensitive emergencies like heart attacks and strokes, where every additional minute of delay means more permanent damage.

How to Fix America’s Healthcare System: Single Payer, a Public Option, or Something in Between?

When asked what he’d want to see if Democrats retake Congress and the White House in 2026 and 2028, Dr. Davidson said his Committee to Protect Healthcare is positioning itself to push for universal coverage, though he noted that single payer isn’t the only model that works. The physician pointed to Germany and France as examples of highly regulated, non-single-payer systems that regularly outperform the United States on cost, access, and outcomes.

He highlighted a proposal from the Center for Health and Democracy called Medicare by Choice, which would let individuals and employers buy into a Medicare-like public option with added vision, dental, and hearing coverage.

“Boy, that seems like a hell of a plan to me,” Dr. Davidson said, noting that a plan structured this way could potentially pass with 51 Senate votes through the budget reconciliation process rather than jhaving to clear the 60-vote filibuster threshold.

Having practiced emergency medicine in New Zealand in 2013, Dr. Davidson said universal coverage fundamentally changes the doctor-patient relationship by completely removing cost as a factor in treatment decisions. He further argued that the piecemeal, coupon-hunting nature of American healthcare delivery is a major contributor to physicians burning out and leaving the practice altogether.

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Healthcare as a Public Good, Not a Profit Driver

Gibson pointed to the book “An American Sickness,” by Dr. Elizabeth Rosenthal, which examines how healthcare has become driven by what’s most profitable for business rather than what’s best for patients. He then asked Dr. Davidson directlyt whether healthcare would be better off if it were seen as a public good rather than a profit-driven industry.

“100%. It should be a public good.” Davidson said.

The Committee to Protect Heathcare executive director cited the bipartisan Break Up Big Medicine Act from Sens. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) and Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), which is aimed at insurance conglomerates like UnitedHealth Group. Davidson said insurance giants have found ways to inflate profits even under the ACA’s statutory caps on overhead costs by acquiring physician groups and negotiating higher reimbursement rates. He then referenced a Chicago physician’s account of a patient who died of a treatable liver condition, saying the doctor concluded his patient hadn’t died of liver failure, but rather of being too poor to afford the necessary treatment.

The Root Obstacle: Money in Politics

Gibson asked whether money in politics or universal healthcare needs to be addressed first, given how insurance industry contributions shaped moderate Democrats’ opposition to a public option during the original ACA fight in 2010.

Dr. Davidson acknowledged campaign finance reform likely has to come first before it becomes possible to achieve significant changes to the healthcare system. He noted that Michiganders will soon vote on a ballot measure that would prevent entities with state contracts over $250,000 from contributing to campaigns. He said the initiative drew strong opposition from lobbyists in the capital city, but organizers still managed to gather more than 560,000 citizen signatures to qualify for the ballot.

The State of Abortion Rights 4 Years After the Dobbs Decision

Four years have passed since the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization ruling, in which the conservative Supreme Court majority overturned the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that legalized nationwide abortion rights. Dr. Davidson expressed optimism that states are taking charge to enshrine abortion rights in their own respective constitutions.

Davidson pointed to a wave of state ballot initiatives, including Michigan’s 2022 measure and 2024 votes in red states like Missouri, Montana, and Ohio, showing that abortion rights consistently win at the ballot box even among conservative voters. He pointed out that Florida’s measure fell short only because of the state’s unusual 60 percent approval threshold, despite 57 percent support from voters.

Gibson also asked about “crisis pregnancy centers” that deceptively present themselves to pregnant individuals as abortion providers, while actually working to prevent patients from abortion access. Davidson said medical organizations are pushing back, but that disinformation unfortunately extends beyond these centers.

The conversation then pivoted to the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA), with Gibson asking Dr. Davidson how physicians navigate the tension between federal law requiring patients get life-saving treatment at emergency rooms and state abortion bans that can apply even in life-threatening cases like ectopic pregnancies.

Davidson relayed one colleague’s blunt description of the ambiguity doctors face under “life of the mother” exceptions. How much blood loss does it take before a prosecutor agrees a patient’s life was truly in danger? He recalled how one of his fellow ER physician colleagues in Wisconsin sued the state alongside another Paging America co-host to overturn a dormant 1800s-era abortion ban after Dobbs took effect.

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Bill Cassidy Finding His Spine: Too Little, Too Late

Gibson brought up the sudden shift in rhetoric from outgoing Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-La.), who lost his Republican primary to a Trump-backed challenger and has since become a vocal Trump critic. Gibson asked Dr. Davidson if Cassidy’s new combative approach to the Trump administration makes up for him casting the deciding vote to confirm Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as Health and Human Services Secretary last year. Davidson was blunt.

“Too late, buddy,” Davidson said.

The longtime ER physician heaped criticism on Cassidy — who is also a physician — and argued that a politician who abandoned his medical oath for political convenience shouldn’t get credit for speaking up only after he had nothing left to lose.

Did Vaccine Skepticism Kill a Military Recruit? And Are We Equipped for Another Pandemic?

Gibson also asked about how the Trump administration’s warmth toward vaccine skepticism is taking a human toll. Recently, the U.S. Air Force confirmed that 25-year-old Keon McDaniel died from a flu outbreak at Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland, which spread after Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth lifted vaccine requirements for troops. The requirement was later reinstated after the outbreak affected close to 300 people at the base.

Davidson called the tight conditions in military barracks a “petri dish” for infectious disease and said the data makes clear that the flu shot reduces transmission rates and saves lives.

When asked about the prospect of another pandemic given current federal health leadership, Davidson noted the incompetent response of the first Trump administration’s handling of the Covid-19 pandemic. He added that messaging from the top, including suggestions about ingesting bleach and opposition to masking, embedded itself in public behavior throughout the pandemic. He further expressed concern that state health departments and figures like RFK Jr., Dr. Oz and Jay Bhattacharya now dominate federal public health institutions.

Is it Too Late to Rebuild Trust in Government Institutions?

Gibson asked whether the credibility of agencies like the CDC can ever be restored after four years of leadership by officials who lack credibility and eschew expertise. Davidson said it’s possible but acknowledged it will likely take a generation.

He argued that after the midterms, Democrats controlling either chamber of Congress need to hold RFK JR’s HHS accountable by conducting public oversight hearings on a regular basis. He cited emails recently released by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) showing HHS officials instructed then-CDC director Susan Monarez to route agency communications through political staff before release. Davidson said the answer going forward is “radical transparency and honesty from public health communicators, even when the message is unwelcome, along with an acknowledgment that public health itself has become politicized.”

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Raw America doesn’t have a billionaire backer. We don’t run corporate ads. Interviews like this one, in which a practicing ER physician and public health advocate shares their unfiltered, on-the-record accounts of what’s actually happening in rural hospitals and emergency rooms across the country, only happen because readers like you are stepping up to fund this kind of journalism directly. If you enjoyed this interview and are still on the free list, make today the day you become a paying subscriber. None of this would be possible without you.

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Gibson and Perryman touched on a variety of topics, including:

• Democracy Forward’s multiple wins in the federal courts blocking the $1.8 billion slush fund for MAGA loyalists, voter purges and the federal funding freeze

• ICE detention conditions and the rising number of deaths in custody

• The ongoing fight over Trump’s permanent IRS audit immunity deal

• January 6 defendants attempting to backdoor their way into getting taxpayer money through the Federal Tort Claims Act

• Getting to the bottom of mysterious prediction market accounts making suspiciously timed bets tied to the president’s actions

• Contrasting Trump’s self-aggrandizing Fourth of July celebrations with the true intent of America’s founding principles

• Perryman’s upcoming book, “Ordinary People, Extraordinary Times”

• What a Democratic-controlled Congress should prioritize after the midterms

• Whether there’s momentum to reform or expand the Supreme Court

Conversations like this one, where Raw America features experts sharing inside knowledge that you won’t find anywhere else, require resources and a commitment to asking real questions instead of chasing clicks. This kind of work is only possible with the support of readers who decide to become paying subscribers. If you’ve been enjoying live interviews like this one on a free subscription, now is the time to upgrade to a paying one. We’re counting on you to keep this going.

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Democracy Forward’s Hundreds of Lawsuits Against the Trump Administration

Gibson openedthe conversation by noting that Democracy Forward has become one of the most active groups challenging the Trump administration in the courts, and asked Perryman to walk through some of her group’s recent work.

Perryman said Democracy Forward has been busy on multiple fronts, having just successfully blocked the president’s $1.8 billion slush fund meant to financially compensate people who attacked the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021. Perryman’s group also stopped the administration’s attempt to use a Department of Homeland Security database to remove eligible voters from the rolls, and challenged the federal funding freeze of congressionally appropriated money for programs like Head Start and Meals on Wheels.

Perryman further observed that 42 million Americans rely on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP (also known as food stamps), and that Democracy Forward had no choice but to sue the White House for using SNAP as a political tool during the government shutdown earlier this year. She added that her group is also working on guaranteeing due process protections and access to legal counsel, as well as legal challenges to untrained DOGE staffers accessing Americans’ sensitive private data without facing any accountability.

ICE Detention Deaths And The Fight For Transparency

Gibson referenced a Washington Post report that ICE will no longer report deaths of newly released detainees, and pointed to a roughly 140 percent surge in the deaths of immigrants in ICE custody since the start of Trump’s second term. He then asked what Democracy Forward is doing to protect detainees.

Perryman pointed to recent wins in the judiciary that have forced the government to allow detainees to have access to legal counsel, pointing out that the administration initially tried to block it outright. She also emphasized the importance of journalists exposing what’s happening inside detention facilities.

“Journalists are really important in this time, because they’re reporting things, sometimes even before the government admits that they’re doing it,” Perryman said, adding that her organization is looking for additional legal options to force transparency from the White House.

The IRS Slush Fund And Trump’s Audit Immunity Deal

Gibson mentioned Democracy Forward’s successful lawsuit blocking a $10 billion IRS payment to Trump, and then asked about the second half of the deal Trump struck with Todd Blanche. That deal gives Trump, his family and his businesses permanent protection from IRS audits.

Perryman confirmed the slush fund remains blocked while the case moves through discovery, and predicted more damning information will surface in the future. On the audit immunity piece, she said her organization is exploring legal options to challenge what she called “a one-sided, unfair, and we know unlawful deal.”

She noted that in a related Florida case, Democracy Forward has represented former government officials from both parties who understand how the IRS and the U.S. Department of the Treasury actually function, helping inform the judge’s options.

“I think you’ll see more to come from us on that,” Perryman said.

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January 6 Defendants Trying To Backdoor Their Way Into Receiving Taxpayer Money

Gibson then pointed to reports showing that some January 6 defendants and Trump loyalists are attempting to claim taxpayer money through the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA) after the $1.8 billion slush fund was blocked, and asked about what Democracy Forward was doing to prevent it.

Perryman acknowledged the FTCA was an important law, citing a separate, legitimate use of the act to help people genuinely harmed by the government — including children exposed to tear gas — file claims for compensation. She confirmed Democracy Forward has heard of January 6 defendants attempting to use the same statute for settlements and said that while Democracy Forward is reviewing legal options, Congress would still need to take action to prevent the FTCA from being abused. Perryman added that the judge overseeing the slush fund case issued a broad order making clear she doesn’t want to see related money moving.

“The judges are kind of catching on to what this administration is doing, where they try to play a shell game,” Perryman said.

Hunting Down Potential Insider Trading from Trump’s Decisions

Gibson referenced a BBC investigation from April finding that newly formed accounts on prediction markets like Kalshi and Polymarket — with Donald Trump Jr. serving as a strategic advisor for both groups — placed winning bets on events like the Iran war and a Venezuela invasion moments before they were publicly announced.

Perryman said several cases have been filed to investigate communications and documents related to the administration’s conduct, and that her group is paying close attention to allegations of administration figures potentially engaging in insider trading.

“We have a pattern that we can show, we can use the law to try to expose that pattern, and then to try to challenge that pattern,” she said, noting that tools like the Freedom of Information Act will be central to that effort.

Reclaiming The Fourth Of July from Trump’s Self-Aggrandizement

With the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence approaching this weejend, Gibson asked Perryman to address concerns that President Trump has turned what should be a unifying milestone into a partisan spectacle.

Perryman argued the president is using the anniversary to distract from low approval ratings and a government that hasn’t delivered for ordinary people. She pointed instead to the organizing happening across the country.

“We have seen over the past year and a half people in communities from all different walks of life … come together and step forward and say, you know, we’re not going to let a president violate our rights,” she said, observing that the plaintiffs in Democracy Forward’s cases are ordinary people rather than powerful institutions. She also pointed to the millions who turned out for this year’s “No Kings” protests as evidence of sustained public engagement.

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“Ordinary People, Extraordinary Times” and How Americans Can Find Meaning Through Action

Perryman’s forthcoming book, “Ordinary People, Extraordinary Times,” is available for preorder ahead of its August release. Gibson asked about the book’s message on local organizing — noting that even in places like his city of Louisville, Kentucky, the most recent No Kings turnout was conservatively estimated at 10,000 people.

The Democracy Forward CEO said her book points out that autocrats rely on a strategy of convincing people their voice and actions don’t matter. She urged readers to turn their outrage into action, and emphasized that this can include supporting independent media, voting in the upcoming midterms, and investing in public goods like libraries and schools — even for people without kids in them.

“There’s never been change … like, real change that came down from powerful people,” she said. “It’s always been demanded by the people.”

What A Democratic-Controlled Congress Should Prioritize

With the midterms approaching and Democrats poised to win back control of one or both chambers of Congress, Gibson asked what concrete steps Perryman would want to see from a Democrats, beyond the obvious calls for investigations of Trump officials and accountability for lawbreakers.

Perryman pointed to unfinished business from January 6, including the absence of comprehensive legislation to safeguard the peaceful transfer of power. She also called for more voting rights legislation in the wake of the Supreme Court’s ruling disenfranchising voters of color in the Deep South.

She additionally tied the affordability fight directly to Trump’s corruption, arguing that rising costs for ordinary Americans are connected to people inside the administration profiting from their roles in government.

“People are... less concerned now about exactly what you stand for on every single policy thing, and they really want to know that if they entrust you with power, that you are going to use your power to protect people,” Perryman said.

Is There Momentum for Significant Supreme Court Reform?

Gibson closed by asking whether there’s potential for Democrats to expand the Supreme Court, particularly in light of this week’s controversial rulings.

Perryman pointed to the Court’s historically low approval ratings, and attributed them to their refusal to protect the rights of all Americans and the Court’s inconsistency when it came to checking the Trump administration. She predicted things will get much harder for the Trump administration in the judiciary, but cautioned that structural reforms will require sustained public pressure from everyday Americans rather than waiting for institutions to act on ther own.

“Every time you get upset about another Supreme Court decision ... don’t just get upset about it, do something about it, make your voices heard,” Perryman said.

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Gibson and Attiah also discussed:

• Her ongoing arbitration fight against the Post after being fired via email following comments she made in the wake of the death of far-right activist Charlie Kirk.

• The gutting of the Post’s opinion section under Jeff Bezos, and what that says about billionaire control of American media.

• What it means for a newspaper serving a prominent Black community having no more Black columnists on its opinion page.

• The threat AI poses to organic, human journalism, and what independent media needs to do to survive.

• Attiah’s recent loss of her father, and what grief has taught her.

Raw America is only able to bring you these kinds of in-depth, informative live interviews with the help of our paying subscribers. If you value independent journalism unafraid to hold powerful people accountable without taking billionaire money or running ads from corporate sponsors, please consider upgrading your free Raw America subscription to a paying one. None of this would be possible without your financial support.

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‘Who Actually Wanted Me Out of There?’: Inside Attiah’s Fight with Washington Post Management

Eight months after being fired via email following more than a decade at the Washington Post, Attiah is fighting back through the arbitration with the support of her union: the Washington-Baltimore News Guild.

The paper’s management accused her of “gross misconduct” for posts she wrote on her Bluesky account in the immediate aftermath of Kirk’s death. In one post, she bluntly wrote she would decline to perform public mourning for a man she described as someone who had long espoused hatred toward Black people and women. Attiah argued her posts were less about Kirk specifically than about America’s reflexive insistence that people publicly grieve for recently deceased figures regardless of what those people stood for.

What emerged during arbitration, she said, was even more damning for the Post. A white male colleague — whom Gibson correctly guessed was conservative opinion writer Mark Thiessen — had been posting content on his own social media account encouraging people to dox and harass people expressing negative opinion about Charlie Kirk, yet faced no consequences. Attiah said the disparity in how they were treated makes it clear what the Post is actually willing to tolerate, and from whom.

Attiah said the arbitration also revealed that the Post never called her to discuss the posts, never checked on her safety amid a wave of death threats and bypassed its own basic journalistic standards before firing her, complaining that backlash from her comments necessitated it.

“On a scale of one to ten of crazy backlash or threats, I would consider that a 0.5 in my career,” Attiah said. “I went and had macaroni and cheese for dinner, went about my day, did not see any incoming threats.”

A decision in the arbitration is expected in the coming weeks. The potential outcome includes full reinstatement at the Post, with back pay.

Firing the Last Black Columnist at a Paper Serving a Significant Black Population

Gibson asked Attiah what it says about the Washington Post that it now no longer has any Black columnists on its opinion section, despite the paper serving a city that is more than 43 percent Black according to the latest Census data. Attiah said key indicators that the paper was taking a sharply different direction was Bezos’s 2024 decision to kill the paper’s endorsement of Kamala Harris, along with ordering the opinion section to cover only “personal liberties and free markets.” Management even offered the entire opinion section a buyout. Attiah said the entire process was an omen of things to come, both for Washington Post employees and for the media at large.

“It sends a profound chilling permission signal to other outlets to say, ‘sure, let’s get back to our white male points of view, like it should have always been,’” Attiah said. “This is an institution that has decided to take the lead in dismantling Black journalistic progress in this city. And it’s blatant, in your face.”

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What Billionaires Are Actually Buying When They Acquire Media Outlets

Gibson asked Attiah to weigh in on the larger wave of major media acquisitions by billionaires ideologically aligned with President Donald Trump’s administration. This includes Jeff Bezos and the Washington Post, as well as David Ellison — the son of billionaire Trump donor Larry Ellison — now poised to own CNN’s parent company after the Department of Justice greenlit Paramount-Skydance’s merger with Warner Bros. Discovery. Fox also recently acquired streaming platform Roku, making it the third-largest player in U.S. television. When Gibson asked Attiah if she thought billionaires were investing in journalism or aiming to control narratives, she didn’t hesitate.

“I’m gonna go with door number two,” Attiah said. “We’re already seeing it.”

The former Post columnist put the current moment in historical context, noting that for most of American media history, most media outlets were openly owned by wealthy oligarchs who used them as tools to suppress dissent and reinforce existing power structures. The mid-20th century ideal of an independent, objective press was, she argued, a relatively brief and commercially motivated aberration, and that what’s happening now is looking more and more like a reversion to the historical norm.

“I view it as a techno-fascist acceleration of a return to a mean in this country,” Attiah said. “We’ve been perhaps lucky in a lot of ways that we have gotten used to at least this myth of a media that is independent, is free from political pressures, has the power to take down presidents.”

She also sounded the alarm about how media maga-mergers are impacting the economics of investigative journalism, which has never been self-sustaining and has historically depended on institutional support that is now being stripped away or redirected.

“I don’t know if we’re going to Substack our way out of that problem,” Attiah said.

The Danger AI Poses to Journalism and the Internet Itself

When Gibson asked if AI had a role in modern newsrooms, Attiah acknowledged some potential uses, like AI poterntially help journalists search and retrieve information from decades of newspaper archives. But she said what’s actually being done with AI is for a much different purpose.

“Right now we’re in a point where the language is about increasing engagement or displacing human labor,” Attiah said. “That’s not towards getting people to understand more.”

She also raised the concern that AI-generated content is creating a new default voice for online writing, which she characterized as overly safe and less risky, and that even writers who don’t use AI are being pulled toward imitating its voice.

“It’s flattened what people write,” Attiah said. “There’s now a certain cadence that we can all recognize, and even if you don’t use AI, there’s now an incredible temptation to at least sound like it.”

Attiah argued that the fundamental value of journalism lies in original reporting, new framing and lived experiences, and that this is exactly what AI cannot replicate. She added a warning that news outlets embracing the tool as a replacement for human writers are undermining the one thing that makes them worth reading.

Resistance Summer School: Teaching What Columbia Wouldn’t Let Her Teach

Attiah announced that she’s now teaching courses through her Resistance Summer School, the independent online program she launched after Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs canceled her course on the history of American media and its intersection with race. She noted that decision came in direct direct response to pressure the Trump administration forced on the university.

Her course now has more than 1,000 students across two iterations, and she’s teaching it again this summer, using her direct experience as the Post’s last Black columnist.

“I am now a radical headmistress who gets to teach what I like,” Attiah said.

She connected the moment to historical precedents in European Eastern Bloc countries, where professors under authoritarian regimes established underground “flying universities” to keep knowledge going when the government came after education. Attiah noted that both independent journalists and educators are now operating in a similar fashion.

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‘Am I Gonna Be Okay?’ How Grief Creates Opportunities for Reinvention

Toward the end of the conversation, Gibson asked Attiah about a February piece she’d written on her Substack, The Golden Hour, about losing her father in the midst of her contesting her firing from the Washington Post.

Attiah said she only learned in the final months of his life that her father — a doctor who immigrated from Ghana — had been a student journalist, and had once even been expelled from school over an article he wrote criticizing a paint job on the building. His grandfather had to beg the school to reinstate him.

“To have that gift [of writing] from him, to know that maybe it’s in the blood, has given me a lot of strength to keep going,” Attiah said.

Attiah reflected on the convergence of losses over the past year, including her job, her father and her university teaching position, and what it means to rebuild one’s life well into adulthood. But she observed that grief has also clarified a lot, and allowed her to find freedom in something new after experiencing significant loss.

“I do think there’s a lot of grief in general for a lot of people right now,” Attiah said. “And I think we have an opportunity to build new worlds right now and build something else, or at the very least to support one another as we’re all navigating a sense of loss.”

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CBS’ Gutting of 60 Minutes Is an Attack on ‘the Gold Standard’ of Broadcast Journalism

This week’s firing of 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley, along with the forcing out of star journalist Sharon Alfonsi — who spearheaded the bombshell investigation into El Salvador’s CECOT gulag that CBS management tried to kill — and the exit of Anderson Cooper have left the journalism world watching to see what’s next for the remaining faces of 60 Minutes. Schulze didn’t mince words about what’s being lost.

“When I was young, it was the kind of place where you were like, ‘Oh my god, if I could work there — that would be it,’” she said. “To see it go through this trauma intentionally is just remarkable to me. I’m dumbfounded by it, I really am.”

Schulze emphasized that 60 Minutes isn’t some relic of a pre-digital era. Nine million people watched every episode last season. The show has been the gold standard of American broadcast journalism for 52 years, and the journalists who work there earn that distinction every week.

“You have to be a journalist at your core,” Schulze said of 60 Minutes’ on-air talent. “The gutting of 60 Minutes is just unfathomable, really.”

CBS’ Real Strategy: Keeping Donald Trump Happy

CBS Evening News ratings under new anchor Tony Dokoupil have cratered — hovering around 3.7 million viewers while ABC’s David Muir pulls close to 9 million on a regular night. But Schulze argued that’s beside the point, because the people making these decisions aren’t actually trying to run a news organization.

“The strategy is the owners of Paramount — who own CBS and are trying to buy CNN and Warner Brothers Discovery — their strategy is keep Donald Trump happy so he will approve all of the business deals they want to make,” Schulze explained. “They have an $11 billion merger pending right now.”

That context, Schulze said, explains everything from the Taiwan embarrassment — where CBS reported on Trump’s visit to China from Taiwan, 1,000 miles from the actual story — to the destruction of 60 Minutes. The veteran journalist argued that CBS’ billionaire owners, and their hand-picked editor-in-chief, Bari Weiss, care less about ratings and more about greasing the wheels that will lead to the growth of their empire.

Bari Weiss Has No Idea How to Run a Newsroom — But That’s the Entire Point

Bari Weiss came to CBS News from The Free Press, a right-wing opinion website she founded after leaving the New York Times. She has no TV news experience. By her own admission, she doesn’t own a television. Schulze, who worked her way from reporter to field producer to executive producer to running WGN Chicago’s newsroom, described Weiss’ hire as, at minimum, an insult to everyone who spent decades preparing for that kind of role.

“She was mostly an opinion editor. She wrote a few columns at the New York Times, left in a huff, and started this Substack,” Schulze said. “I do find it a little bit offensive. I mean, I know people who run these big news organizations who spent their lives preparing for this and working at it every day. And then she swoops in — she’s a political hire, and there it is.”

The practical results have been visible. Schulze documented CBS’ string of failures in a May essay for her Indistinct Chatter Substack. Tony Dokoupil’s broadcast from Taiwan happened because Weiss failed to obtain a visa for him to go to China. She wrote that reporters unable to get to where the story is suggests a newsroom in visible distress.

“Logistics are it,” Schulze said. “You can’t do the news without a solid logistics operation, and they clearly have muffed that. And nobody cares.”

All the Media Properties the Ellisons Could Control Under the Proposed $11 Billion Merger

Oracle founder Larry Ellison — one of the wealthiest people on earth — and his son David Ellison, CEO of Paramount Skydance, are racing to finalize an $11 billion merger with Warner Brothers Discovery. If it goes through, the Ellisons will control not just CBS, but also CNN, HBO, MTV, Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, Cartoon Network, BET, TLC, the Discovery Channel, Paramount Pictures, and streaming services including Paramount Plus and HBO Max — in addition to their existing ownership stake in TikTok’s U.S. entity.

David Ellison hosted a private dinner for Donald Trump and acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, who would need to bless the merger, on the same week as the White House Correspondents’ Dinner. Schulze called the situation blatantly corrupt.

“There are some really important concerns here,” she said, noting reports that Ellison has already privately assured Trump he’d address Trump’s grievances about CNN. “He’s already shown us how powerful he is with 60 Minutes. It’s terrifying, really.”

Schulze expressed hope that California Attorney General Rob Bonta’s lawsuit and a coalition of state attorneys general could slow or stop the deal, particularly given that Democrats are expected to make gains in the midterms. Schlulze noted that Democratic lawmakers have already said they’ll be targeting the merger if they win back a majority in one or both chambers of Congress.

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Local News Vanishes Overnight in Indianapolis

In a May 4 post to her Substack, Schulze wrote about how the entire newsroom of Indianapolis, Indiana ABC affiliate WRTV was shut down without warning literally overnight. Over 50 journalists lost their jobs. By 10 PM that same night, a newscast from a competing station took the WRTV team’s place.

Schulze said what happened in Indianapolis is coming to communities across the country, especially if the Nexstar-Tegna merger — which would give one company ownership of 256 TV stations reaching roughly 80 percent of the country — goes through. She argued the stakes are much higher than most people realize.

“Local news is the lifeblood of a community in many respects,” she said. “It’s the place where your local officials are being held to account. It’s the place where reporters are digging into that sketchy contract, or that data center that got secretly approved, and they lied to you about how much energy the data center was going to suck out of your community.”

She urged people to find out who owns their local TV station, and to be vocal with advertisers if they don’t like what they see.

How Nexstar Is Laundering Right-Wing Narratives Through Local Media

Nexstar — which brands itself as a non-biased, middle-of-the-road news organization — owns NewsNation, a cable network that Schulze plainly described as “Fox Lite.” Its prime time lineup is full of former Fox News personalities, and Nexstar chairman Perry Sook has made a series of moves aimed at winning favor with the Trump administration for his pending merger. Schulze warned that NewsNation’s programming is already being fed into Nexstar’s local stations, with more to come.

“We do not need any more of that,” she said. “The right wing has done a perfectly executed capture of media, and it’s not a new project for them. They’ve been doing it for decades.”

The Solution: Public Funding and Independent Media

With legacy media increasingly captured by billionaires trying to cozy up to the powerful, Schulze sees independent media as a critical part of the answer. She also called for expanded public media funding in the vein of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, in that a federally funded entity could provide grants to media outlets that don’t have corporate advertisers. She also expressed a need for a national media literacy program, along with a Democratic-led antitrust movement willing to break up media monopolies similar to how railroad and oil barons had their empires broken up by the Sherman Antitrust Act.

“We need to start thinking about media as a public good, instead of a political tool,” Schulze said.

The veteran broadcast journalist also applauded Hungary’s new government as an instructive example the U.S. could soon follow. After a decade of former Hungarian leader Viktor Orbán consolidating media control among his donors and political allies, Peter Magyar’s new government has moved to dismantle the machinery used to target journalists and opposition figures. She stressed that today’s consolidated media environment can be undone, but only if enough people stand up and fight for it.

“Get out there and support any local media and independent media you can,” she said. “They need your help. Help them in the meantime, while we sort this out.”

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