Raw America managing editor Carl Gibson sat down with former Department of Justice Pardon Attorney Liz Oyer, who worked under then-President Joe Biden and briefly under President Donald Trump, before she was fired. Oyer and Gibson discussed the unprecedented corruption now defining Trump’s use of the pardon power. Here’s what we covered:
Trump’s promise of mass pardons to White House staff — and why it’s unlike anything in American history
How Oyer was fired after refusing to recommend restoring Mel Gibson’s gun rights
The $1.5 billion in financial penalties Trump has wiped out for convicted white-collar criminals
The pay-for-play pardon system: how donations, ambassadorships, and political loyalty have replaced merit
The national security implications of pardoning Changpeng Zhao, who processed transactions for Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Hamas
Whether future administrations can hold pardon recipients accountable — and what guardrails Congress could put in place
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Trump’s Unprecedented Promise: Pardons for Anyone Who Breaks the Law on His Behalf
A recent Wall Street Journal report quoted staffers concerned that they’re being given illegal orders. Trump’s response is: Don’t worry, you’ll get a pardon.
According to Oyer, Trump has treated the pardon power in a way that no other president has before. While Joe Biden did issue a handful of preemptive pardons, there was never a suggestion that preemptive pardons were promised to members of his staff in advance to sanction illegal conduct going forward.
Trump has said he’s going to pardon anybody who came within 200 feet of the Oval Office, which would obviously extend to business associates, political allies, and more.
How Trump Dismantled the Non-Political Pardon Process
The Pardon Attorney is a non-political job, created so the Justice Department can advise the President on how to exercise his pardon power. When Donald Trump came into office, all of that changed. People seeking pardons started going directly to the front doors of the White House rather than through the Justice Department.
Oyer’s office had a staff of about 45 people responsible for carefully reviewing and investigating applications for clemency. But now there is little if any vetting taking place. What matters under Trump is political support, donations to his campaign or his causes, or personal connections with people in his orbit.
According to the Cato Institute, Joe Biden granted 80 pardons during his four-year term. Trump has already issued 166 pardons — not including the more than 1,500 January 6 rioters — issuing pardons at eight times the rate Biden did.
Oyer emphasized that there are people who are truly deserving of a second chance — people who’ve been convicted of low-level crimes decades ago who are still enduring collateral consequences, people who can’t get professional licenses, who face housing barriers — who are being completely overlooked by Donald Trump. There is no space for recommendations based on merit under the current administration.
Current Pardon Attorney Ed Martin has a belief in “no MAGA left behind,” and that pardons should be used to reward those who are loyal to the president.
How Should the Pardon Power Be Reformed?
Former January 6 police officer Michael Fanone told Raw America he’d like to amend the Constitution to eliminate the pardon power entirely. Oyer noted that while she understands Fanone’s point of view given the mass pardons of January 6 rioters, there are many other people out there who are deserving.
According to Oyer, new guardrails are needed to rein in pardon power. She called on Congress to “step up and conduct oversight” by demanding more transparency around the decision-making process and investigating the donations and the lobbyists involved in securing pardons.
A report from the Campaign Legal Center outlined six ways Trump is rewarding his supporters. This includes ambassadorships, cabinet appointments, dropped investigations, and even pardons. Jared Kushner’s father Charles, for example, was convicted on multiple felony charges and was rewarded with an ambassadorship to France.
Oyer observed that Trump’s pardons cannot be undone, and that many have “tremendously harmed and re-victimized victims of crime.” She added that Trump has pardoned some of the biggest white-collar criminals in history, and that many of those pardoned owe their victims tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars. She tracks all of this on her Substack’s “pardon tracker.”
“The total comes to around $1.5 billion — that’s billion with a B — in debts that he has forgiven through pardons,” Oyer said. “These are debts owed to people who were defrauded and victimized, in many cases to taxpayers whose money was stolen. And all of this while Donald Trump claims to be cracking down on fraud as a major priority. It’s nonsense and hypocrisy.”
The Worst Pardons: Drug Lords, Embezzlers, and a Sheriff Who Sold Badges
Some of Trump’s most egregious pardons to date include former Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was sentenced to 45 years for conspiring to traffic cocaine into the United States. Nevada State Legislator Michelle Fiore was also pardoned for embezzling $70,000 from a police memorial fund, using the money to pay her rent and get plastic surgery. Virginia Sheriff Scott Jenkins sold badges to untrained businessmen for $75,000 in bribes.
Oyer said she was “not aware of any other president who has systematically disregarded or not sought input from the pardon attorney the way Donald Trump has.” During her seven-week tenure, she was not consulted about dozens of pardons granted beyond the January 6 pardons.
Oyer was eventually fired over refusing to recommend giving actor and director Mel Gibson permission to have firearms again after being ordered to do so by then-ttorney General Pam Bondi.
“My experience pushing back within the Trump DOJ is what got me fired — and if I had to do it again, I would do exactly the same thing,” Oyer said.
“What I knew about him is that he had a conviction for a very serious domestic abuse incident involving his ex-partner, whom he hit while holding their child. She was injured. He pleaded guilty and was convicted,” she continued. “I had no information to suggest he had rehabilitated himself or was the type of person who could safely possess a firearm.”
Oyer noted that “the data is very clear that domestic violence incidents are much more likely to be fatal when the abuser has a gun.” And because she refused to make the recommendation and declined to reconsider her decision, she was escorted out of the building hours later by security officers.
The National Security Threat: Pardoning Someone Who Processed Money for Al Qaeda
In 2025, Trump’s DOJ pardoned Changpeng Zhao, who headed the cryptocurrency exchange Binance. Zhao facilitated over 1.5 million illegal virtual trades and allowed prohibited transactions to members of Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Hamas. However, perhaps because he brokered a $2 billion investment in the Trump family’s crypto company, he was given a full presidential pardoned.
Oyer argued that the pardon was not only endemic of the Trump administration’s “hypocrisy” on crime, but also “very dangerous” in terms of national security. Trump’s allowed Zhao to get back into the crypto space, opening up the possibility of actions that could potentially endangers national security, and enable consumer fraud and other scams.
“This is a very clear example of Donald Trump placing his own personal and family financial interests ahead of the interests of the American people,” Oyer said.
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